Trauma Queen
"The Trauma Within" is a weekly podcast hosted by Jimanekia, a Trauma and Sexual Assault expert, queer media consultant, and comprehensive sex educator. Join us as we normalize conversations about life's most challenging experiences, from sexual assault to mental health and beyond. Discover stories of resilience, expert insights, and a safe space for discussing some of life's most complex topics. Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/traumaqueen/support
Trauma Queen
The Trauma Within Navigating Corporate America As A Black Woman W/ Sarissa Thrower
Do you have any questions, any comments about the episode? Jimanekia would love to hear from you!
Ever wondered what it's like to be the only Black woman in a corporate boardroom? Join us as we sit down with Sarissa Thrower, an expert in strategic communications and reputation management, who shares her profound journey navigating the challenging worlds of Instagram and broader corporate America. From fostering restorative spaces for Black individuals to redefining trauma as a transformative experience, Sarissa's story is one of resilience and empowerment. She provides an enlightening perspective on the often unseen and unspoken struggles faced in predominantly white professional environments.
Sarissa opens up about her childhood experiences with racism, the complex dynamics of growing up in California, and the life lessons learned from diverse school environments. We recount deeply personal incidents, such as being told to "go back to Africa," and explore how these moments shaped her ability to navigate a world that often feels hostile. Our discussion highlights the importance of family teachings about self-worth and resilience, and how cultural shifts during school years influenced her perspectives on race, class, and identity.
We also delve into the importance of mental health and wellness for Black women, especially when navigating the pressures of white supremacy culture. Sarissa shares her journey of self-care practices, the impact of mentorship, and the role of community in fostering strength and growth. From discussing the impact of microdosing shrooms to the necessity of seeking credible advice and standing up for oneself in the workplace, this episode is packed with authentic insights and practical wisdom. Don’t miss this powerful conversation about the resilience and power of Black women in both personal and professional spheres.
Thank you all for listening. Set a boundary with yourself this week, set a boundary with someone else. If someone else does not respect that boundary. LET THEM LOOSE YOU! Stay hydrated internally and externally. We do not have an ashy family.
IG: @The_Trauma_Within
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thetraumawithin
Jimanekia Ig: @Jimanekia
Therese Thrower is a strategic communications and reputation management expert with 20 years of public relations, media training, image reputation management and executive leadership experience. She describes herself as a media and content obsessive and proud Angeleno, and in her spare time she enjoys live events, urban exploration, casual observation, sparkling wine and the internet. Ladies, gentlemen, theys, them, nims and zims, buckle up for this conversation that goes all over the place, but really we focus in talking about being a Black woman at work. I'm supes excited to have this conversation because I have been a Black girl in many spaces where I was the only Black girl. So I'm excited to talk about being a Black lady, being a Black woman, being Black ladies in general, but also specifically in the workplace. So I always like to start off these pods with who are you? I'll read your cute fancy bio, but I think who are you might change daily, because I know sometimes I'm like who am I today? A bitch in a bed. So I will ask you who are you.
Speaker 2:It's such a big question. Honestly and to your point, I think the answer does change daily, for me as well, I guess in the context of this conversation. I am a Black woman who is frequently in spaces where she is the only one like herself, and I am also a woman of many interests, a woman of many talents, probably an internet addict a little bit. What else? A Scorpio I'm left-handed, I have many things.
Speaker 1:I love that and again, a lot of these questions I ask is truly because I'm nosy and I sometimes forget things and perspective. We all have different perspectives of things. So how did we meet? How do you remember us meeting?
Speaker 2:So I used to work at Instagram.
Speaker 2:It's true, it is actually a fact, and when I was working there, I was responsible for a lot of the external communications initiatives, especially as it relates to thought leaders on the platform, creators, influencers again, internet people Sometimes. You know, my dad used to tell me when I was young that all the time I spent on the internet was it was going to rot my brain. It was a waste of time, and I was like you're, you were wrong, cause basically, how I pay for a roof over my head. Anyway, um, even before I worked at Instagram, about 500 years ago, I met an individual um named Dr John Paul, and we've been looking for a way to collaborate for some time and the opportunity came up.
Speaker 2:This was, I think, october of 2019. I hope I have that year right and I basically hosted a dinner. Yeah, it's been a while. I hosted a dinner and you know we kind of split the difference on the invite list, but through that invite list, you were there, you made an appearance, several other people that I still had the pleasure of keeping in contact with made an appearance that night, and the dinner itself was mainly just meant to, frankly, serve as a restorative and healing space, which, again to our earlier point. This might be the theme of the conversation which, again to our earlier point, this might be the theme of the conversation create an environment where people who often find themselves being the only one in their normal respective environment so that was the theme of the evening, but that's how you and I met. I feel like we had some good conversations that night. You share a little bit about-.
Speaker 2:You were petty, we were, I mean and nothing's changed and I'm petty today. Um, we, we talked about a lot of things and it was. It was actually, I think, a really compelling and like fulfilling experience for me. It was probably one of the things I'm most proud to have done while I worked at um, at Instagram.
Speaker 1:Oh, Instagram. One day y'all will get it together. Probably not.
Speaker 2:I'm like, will they?
Speaker 1:they won't you know I like to be delusive. Sometimes it's kind of fun.
Speaker 2:You're like maybe let me know how it works out for you. Let me know how that works out for you.
Speaker 1:Um. What does trauma mean to you? Oh?
Speaker 2:you know. Okay, so you did. You did give me these questions beforehand and when you asked that question, I actually hadn't thought about the definition before. Like, I think we tossed the word trauma around a lot. Yeah, uh, and especially in today's world where you know everyone, uh, if they're not in therapy, they like to pretend they are.
Speaker 2:I think, fundamentally like from my personal point of view trauma is a moment of impact I have a bang in my eye a moment of impact that fundamentally changes your orientation, right? So I think we automatically associate the word trauma with something negative. I think we automatically associate the word trauma with something negative and it quite often is. Let me be very clear about that. But I think really, it's just a friction point and sometimes the friction point can lead you to more positive things. The thing I wrote back when you sent the questions ahead of time was I looked at the dictionary and the dictionary definition is a deeply disturbing or distressing experience or a personal injury, and again, I would say that it's actually probably something more like a transitional experience, an experience that creates a portal that leads you to be someone different than the person that you were before you had this trauma occur. So that's what it means to me. Yeah, it's probably a reflection of my own experiences with it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I like to ask because we can read it. We can go through an Instagram slide. It's on TikTok. Everybody on TikTok is an educator now yes, correct yes. Everyone's been to school.
Speaker 2:Yes, phds, everywhere you go, call me doctor. Thank you, might as well.
Speaker 1:Might as well, and I think that people just have so many things that we just overutilize. We talk about like people use, like I'm traumatized. Are you? I feel, gaslit, did they just lie to you?
Speaker 2:Are they just shitty? Do you know what that means? Do you actually know what that means? Yeah, I'm being harmed.
Speaker 1:Are you being harmed? Are you uncomfortable?
Speaker 2:and you don't like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's get into language We'll talk about language or were you wrong or were you wrong? Yeah, accountability, that's wild. So for you, as I have also been Black in many places, I'm currently Black in one of my jobs right now what does it mean for you to be? This is going to go all over the place. So right now, we are recording this in Black History Month. So what does it mean to be Black at work during Black History Month?
Speaker 2:Oh boy, do you want to talk about trauma? You want to talk about trauma, you know what? And I feel like it's a fairly recent phenomenon, like it didn't used to be that way, at least not as far as I can remember. I've been in my career for 20 years and I had jobs even before I started in my career and of course I've you know, I went to a school where I was, you know, a handful of black kids in class, et cetera, and it just feels like the focus has become more and more uh, like it's just the. The aperture has gotten a lot smaller in terms of, like you know when, when you learned about slavery in elementary school and all the white kids like I would turn around and look at you.
Speaker 1:Yes, still like when you see her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I was, like I wasn't there. I'm learning about it. The same way, you are a bitch Like what the fuck? So I think to be black during black history, what that work? There is an expect, you know what. Let me take another step back. I this is controversial, maybe, I don't know. I actually actually hate ergs. I hate employee resource groups. I have mixed opinions about dei and not in the way that like I don't like not mixed opinions about diversity, equity and inclusion, like the thing, yeah, that comprise dei, but like the way that it is executed, especially in places like school, academia, workplace, etc. It very rarely, in my observation, actually leads to more diversity, more equity and more inclusion, the way that it is currently kind of put forth in our society. So I'm also like not a joiner, Like I'm not like a real, I'm not really like a club girly. I don't like group activities. I hate group activities. I hate icebreakers.
Speaker 1:Let's be honest I don't like them. I don't want to break.
Speaker 2:Like, leave it there, there's. It's there for a reason I have. I have social grace. I have, I think, social skill. I am literally a PR person by profession and I've done okay.
Speaker 2:But I'm also introverted and to me, forced social interaction is probably it's one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse to me, like when I, when it happens and I feel it again. You want to talk about trauma. So I think a couple of things. When you're experiencing conversations about race in the workplace, whether it's black history month or not, obviously there has to be a level, I think, of respectful interaction there, because lived experience, whether or not you agree with it or believe it happened, is what it is.
Speaker 2:So people's perception is always going to inform their bias and their beliefs. That's the first thing. And the second thing is and part of the reason I struggle with DEI is because it approaches these conversations from a monolithic point of view, right? So, like your blackness, your black experience, even though we're both black women, is not going to be identical to mine, because we are two different people, we're two different human beings. So I struggle with this idea that you know, we should all be celebrated in the same way, we should all be acknowledged in the same way that we're all going to have the same points of reference. Black people, we are global. We are a large population globally and when you factor in things like immigration and travel and regionality, like Black people from the South, they're not the same as Black people from Oakland. They're just not, because the region is different and the United States is a big country. It's very hard to cover for all of those things.
Speaker 2:So how do you have that conversation in an environment like a conference room, realistically and without it becoming some kind of like very high level, very glossed over, almost sort of meaningless experience? And then there's the last thing I'll say about this is that there is it's kind of a double-edged sword, right. So it's weird to have the white women or white people or anyone who's not black leading these initiatives, because fundamentally, they will never have a black experience because they're not black people. But when you ask someone black to do it, then it's a burden. I gotta do it. Well, then it's a burden, right, it's like just why I gotta be black. Like why I gotta be black. But like the reality is is that, yeah, we probably should be involved, because look what happens and I'm like you guys don't pay me enough for this and I'm not a joiner and I don't want to go to the potluck because I don't know what your houses are like, so leave me out of it all together. That's how I feel about Black History Month while being Black at work.
Speaker 1:Please don't do potlucks during Black History Month unless everybody is melanated.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm listen. That might be controversial, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Some people have cats, are you okay, because I was like them. Cat hairs have been seen on TikTok Audacity.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you let animals in your kitchen. I don't know who's in your house. I'm good, thank you, I'll bring my lunch. I'll bring my lunch.
Speaker 1:While you were talking, I was thinking I want to take it even further back, because we found out later like we grew up kind of close to each other we did. Like we made it y'all. We actually did. But often in the IE and in these schools and in these places, being Black is not. It is very tricky.
Speaker 2:Oh well, so for those of you who are, listening.
Speaker 1:Let's do this.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about what the IE is. So California is a very big state. It is literally as large as like half of Western Europe. I think I recently read a stat that said we are like, we are, a top 10 global economy. So California is massive and it's it's again, there's regions within regions. So you have, you know, the Bay area, you have Northern California, which is different than the Bay area you have. You have the central coast inland, and then you have the Central Coast. Shout out to Bakersfield, shout out to Bakersfield.
Speaker 1:They have sun downtowns. They still have sun downtowns, absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's intense. And then you have the Central Coast coastal, so, like your San Luis Obispos Anyone ever see what's it called? Is it Pretty Little Lies? No, big Little Lies. They live on the Central Coast with that bridge, yeah, okay. And then you have obviously Southern California, san Diego. For anyone who doesn't know what the Inland Empire is, it's basically your desert region. Basically, once you leave the county of Los Angeles, which actually is very large, you enter into a land, a territory that I would not recommend for anybody. It's desert, it's a meth capital, a fentanyl capital. It's stressful.
Speaker 1:What was Riverside like? And I'm like, oh, we're known for meth.
Speaker 2:It used to be Orange Groves and now it's racist and meth labs. It was probably actually racist even when the Orange Groves orange rose.
Speaker 2:But the oranges were so nice they were and you could smell them in the air. But, yes, so the first time I got called the N-word I was in the sixth grade and I was actually coming home from school. I had just gotten off the bus and there was this little boy I can't remember his name, I think it was like I started with a, b, bob, benjamin, benny, something like that. Anyway, it was just so like out of left field, like I was, like we'd had a disagreement. Wouldn't be the first time I had an outright argument with a, with a white man, in my life. Um, and it wouldn't be the last time.
Speaker 2:And you know, I was walking, basically turning the corner to get to my street and he said why don't you go back to Africa, edward?
Speaker 2:And I was like, oh my God, and I'm laughing because it actually it was funny at the time and it's funny now, because if you have parents and again, this is not the case for every black person but if you have parents, that uh imparted upon you and understanding and an awareness that you are different in the world, but it doesn't make you less than when stuff like that happens to you, I think you actually are a little bit more prepared for it do have to say that growing up in California, even in the, even in the desert, my brushes with overt racism like that have been relatively few and far between.
Speaker 2:California is the kind of place where we hide our racism. We're passive. Yeah, it's not like Confederate flag tacky, but it's interesting because I actually attribute a lot of my ability to navigate these spaces with the experiences I had in those environments. I don't know if you feel the same way, but I almost appreciate some of the past, because it sharpens your intuition, I think, and your instinct as to who's actually really trustworthy, who's full of shit and whether or not you're well, it's a safety mechanism who's who's?
Speaker 1:full of shit and uh, whether or not you're. Well, it's a safety mechanism. Basically, I agree. I remember the first time I was called the n-word. I didn't even really realize it. We had moved to like canyon crest, if people know okay yep, thank you, uh, from the east side, um, and I was in the front yard like minding your business, living my business and someone drove by, not a drive-by bitch, a drive-by nigger it's not funny, it's actually.
Speaker 1:I got drive-by niggered, okay. And when I tell you I was like what? By the time I had lifted my head, my mother flew out the front door. I'm like, yeah, you've never been dropped by niggard. That is, it's wild.
Speaker 2:Uh, it's a thing right, I'm sorry I don't mean to laugh, it's not, not it's fine.
Speaker 1:At this age I'm like how old were you? I was in like the fifth grade. I was like 11.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we were around the same age. I think I was like maybe 11. Cause I'm in November, so I was always like a little bit behind my friends who like turned the next age. So in fifth grade I was like nine and then I turned 10. My parents were like she's four years old, she can get her ass in school. They don't do that anymore. Now if you're born after like August or September, you're the oldest one in your class.
Speaker 2:You're the oldest one which is crazy, which is giving like what's that dude from Fast Times at Ridgemont High? That's like 30 years old and a senior.
Speaker 1:That's how those kids are now anyway, damn okay I, I do think between that and then going from, because I also went to like different types of schools. So I went to like a private school in elementary and then my mom was like I'm not doing six hours of homework with you every night, we're going to public school. Uh, yeah, no, completely. Shout out to cheryl. She said. And then I went to school in the East side, which I also think helped me to be who I am today, because I was around black and black and Mexican kids.
Speaker 1:It was like the sprinkles of white.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that actually makes a huge difference. Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:For me it was actually the reverse. So I also went to a couple of different schools and then cause my parents got divorced when I was 10. I guess this is a trauma podcast, so it's fine. I was bouncing back and forth and my mom moved to Orange County. She moved to Garden Grove. It was really close to the Crystal Cathedral, but I was with my dad and I went to school in Rialto for about a year. Oh, you went to the town.
Speaker 1:I did. I just got to not be fooled by this cute hair. That's just because I, just because truly truly from the hood.
Speaker 2:My dad was a teacher and he was teaching at the school rialto. He was like I'm just gonna have you here because then I don't have to drive you all the way around. So for a year I spent a uh a time in at school rialto. This is after I got called the n-word. He was like let me, let's get you out of here. And actually I got into my first schoolyard fight with, unfortunately, another black girl because she kept saying I like this boy that I did not like. So I definitely threw milk on her in the cafeteria. I wanted to stir up because I was like here's what we're not going to do. We're not going to do rumors and speculation.
Speaker 2:We do not do rumors and speculation Not on my watch, anyway, that we do not. Two rivers of speculation Not on my watch, anyway. That's why I was only there for a year, because you were tussling. Your dad was like I act, like everywhere I go is a prison yard.
Speaker 1:Again, don't be fooled by the cute presentation of this human y'all. She tussles.
Speaker 2:That's wild yeah. No, I think middle is like kind of in between, and then high school. I went when I was back in corona and it was well. It was a little bit more diverse. There was a lot of latinos there, there's a lot of asians, filipinos, a smattering of white children. Still not enough black people for my liking and taste. But you know, that's where I met the homies like the long-term black homies, etc. Because there was, it was just a bigger environment. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
Speaker 1:No, no I think middle school also was, uh, like I felt like I went through like these culture shocks because, while all of this in what way?
Speaker 2:say more about that. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yes yes, so I also was in the hood, a little bit uh in on san bernardino, in uh off like highland and del rosa. Oh yeah, no, okay, okay, all right, listen, because my aunt lived there and because I was raised by my grandparents often one of them would be at work so my aunts were also like helping to raise me yeah I was like well, I'm not driving back and forth, come Come on out here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there was tussling because you learn a lot, but the culture shock for me was like going from being around all these black and brown kids and like understanding each other and having this. And then I went to Matthew Gage Middle School, which was I named them, I named them, which was very white, and so it was like this whole new smathering and it was like what the fuck it was like I look different, I talk different.
Speaker 2:Was that your first time in that kind of environment? For the most part, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:And a lot of these kids grew up with money and thought they were better.
Speaker 2:Quite as it's kept.
Speaker 1:There are some nice areas in the IE I always look at, even going into high school. We were the bootleg Laguna Beach, if y'all know, throw it back one time, because the kids did have money and some of them knew them. So they're like we're similar. I'm like girl. We are in Riverside. We got dragged on that OC show. They hated Riverside. We got dragged on that OC show.
Speaker 2:They hated Riverside Shit this is. I remember he was like I'm from Chino bitch, and I was like, first of all, chino is not even that bad.
Speaker 1:It's kind of bad.
Speaker 2:Chino Hills lovely Like they definitely have street sweeping there. Are you kidding?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Please, but like the kids would say things and like not realize, and this will always stick with me. I was in middle school and I used to lie on my mama. I used to be like, oh sure I couldn't go. I told her later I was like girl. I used to lie and say you wouldn't let me go. They probably thought you were mean. She was like what. And so these girls were like oh my God, I remember it so clearly. We were at PE. We went and changed our clothes, which that's a whole nother conversation. Pe locker room's wild, but we changed clothes. I'm like oh my God, we're having a party this weekend. We uninvited people to invite you, so we hope you can come. And I'm looking at them that is so Caucasian.
Speaker 2:We excluded others so that you could be included. How about?
Speaker 1:we not.
Speaker 2:But you uninvited them.
Speaker 1:So I was like, let's not do that.
Speaker 2:I don't want that. No, thank you.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh okay, why don't? I think my mom's going to let me go. In my mind I'm like are you fucking kidding me? As a 12 year old, I'm like thank you, no I like, I admire that, I admire that something didn't feel right well, you know people.
Speaker 2:Some black girls go to sleepovers and end up getting it's giving crime scene investigation listen, this is going a little left, but it makes sense because it's us.
Speaker 1:Do you remember that black mom that went to that sleepover? Yep, that's what I was home. Yep, reference point the rest of my life. Yep, yep, because everyone said we don't know what happened to it. There's 10 of y'all in this house and she's the only one that fell off a balcony.
Speaker 1:Go to him yep, yep, yep, yeah, it's yeah 100, okay, interesting we tussled here, but the point of all of this we're going to come back. The point of this was like there's a lot of things that we go through before we even get into the workplace, that we have to navigate and get to, and then we get to the workplace. So what is it like being a Black woman in the workplace, or what has it been like for you?
Speaker 2:woman in the workplace. Well, what has it been like for you? When I think about it in the plainest terms, it's again. Sometimes there's benefit to it, and anyone who has existed in predominantly white spaces in corporate America specifically knows what I'm, will know what I'm talking about, and there's obviously a lot of downsides to it. So it also depends on your point of view.
Speaker 2:I am the kind of person who likes to keep my information close to the best. The less you know, the better. A lot of things about me and my business and my life are need to know, and unless you ask specifically the right combination of questions in the correct order, cause you didn't ask, so I wasn't, it's not a lie if you didn't ask the right question. Basically, that's how I approach a lot of things. Um, but the flip side of that and I say that to say, well, I don't, honestly, I don't really care, white people don't have culture. Well, I don't, honestly, I don't really care, white people don't have culture.
Speaker 2:White people have no sense of community. Community confuses them. They look down on it. It literally explains all of white history, colonialism, imperialism and their general attitude towards things like social services and even when they get some semblance of a community structure like socialism or communism, public services, et cetera. From a political standpoint, it's not endemic to them because it's not what they're taught. I think, especially when you talk about how whiteness has proliferated and spread and changed over the last like probably I don't know couple centuries or so, like there are white people who are white now that didn't used to be as white as they currently are, everything, all their reference points come from somewhere else, which is why we see so much cultural appropriation, plainly so much adoption of other things. Because they're human beings, I think they crave it.
Speaker 1:I can't even open my eyes, they're closed.
Speaker 2:White people are human beings and they, human beings, crave connection. We are social, we are social animals. So when you think about it from that standpoint, um, there's and again there's still. There's still a lot of privilege and dominance there. But white people have been robbed of their culture, They've been robbed of their native identities over decades, over time, Right and sort of watered down.
Speaker 2:It's been watered down and they have been required to be monolithic and hyper individualistic. So they're all the same, like whiteness is one big, you know indescribable blob, but also it's highly individual. So if you're failing, if you're by yourself, if things are not going well for you, you don't have anyone else to blame. Like that's that to me. That is white culture in a nutshell, cultures of color, brown and black, and diasporic and ethnic culture, on the other hand, is very communal because that's literally how people are. That's literally native to our biology. Correct, we were not always apex predators. We had to invent weapons for that, we had to invent tools for that. The tigers, the saber tooth tiger, was going to eat us otherwise. So sometimes when I'm in these spaces, just to kind of circle it back, when I'm in these spaces, it's helpful to remember that most of the people in the spaces that I'm in do not have the points of reference, because they were literally taught to orient themselves differently to the world. And again, your perspective may not be correct, but if it's true to you, then there's really no arguing that down. In order to get you to understand where I'm coming from, I literally have to change your perspective.
Speaker 2:A lot of the trauma that I have experienced in the workplace comes from people projecting their own lived experiences onto my lived experience, and I think that's where a lot of the breakage occurs. I think this get the less interested I am in explaining, the less I want to do it, the less helpful I think it is. And the flip side of that is that when you're in spaces with other Black folks, it could go probably one of like a couple ways. You have the people that are like. You know we see each other, we look out for each other. I'm hard pressed to snitch on another black woman in the workplace, cause there's so few of us. We just don't. Even if I, I could see you do a lot of things and if someone asked me about it, I don't. I don't know her. I've never seen her. Is this a photo of you and her together? What? Who?
Speaker 1:I allegedly I'm I'm just a little confused. What you know, what that ai is wild baby. They out here just deep faking never better.
Speaker 2:But the other side is that it gives crabs in a bell, right. So when you have people who get ascribed to whiteness, who want to be, it's giving uncle ruckus, it's giving being the best black in the room and, like me, I'm, I'm normal, I'm interested in being myself, I'm fine with my blackness. I don't believe my blackness has to be compared to other kinds of blackness. I actually am black. I don't have to prove my blackness. I'm, I'm literally black. You may not have seen my specific type of black before, because I am one of one, but that doesn't make me any less black. But I think a lot of times, especially growing up, you know, with the way I sound and the way I, oh, you want to be white and you know, you, you do all these things that are let's get into this, because the microaggressions yeah white culture which makes you more palatable and acceptable to white people.
Speaker 2:We know about code switching, we know about these things, but I come by those things honestly and I, you know, I learned pretty early on that it was, it was, it was privileged. Basically that allowed me at my parents are educated. School was never. It was never a question whether I was going to go to school. I was taught how to maneuver in these spaces. To a certain extent my parents are immigrants so they only knew so much because they had never really operated in American spaces like that.
Speaker 2:But I had the benefit of that, but it didn't to me detract from my Blackness. Just because I know how to show up in different spaces doesn't make me any less Black. It's just my specific type of Black. So I guess the cherry on top of this conversation, or this part of the conversation around being black at work, is that again you mentioned microaggressions. You mentioned sort of having to shape yourself and adapt and mold to being in these spaces that are again not welcoming to you, where there's not a lot of people like you, and I think there's a turning point when you realize that no matter what you do, no matter how you, how you bend your back to kind of fit in it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter, because it was never a space that was designed for you. It's barely designed for white people, Like even a lot of them. Again, the definition of whiteness has shifted right. So the closer you are, it's a spectrum. So the closer you are to whiteness, even if you're not actually a white person, the better you'll do. Closer you are to whiteness, even if you're not actually a white person, the better you'll do. But the only people who are actually white in the way that we think about it are straight white men, usually Protestant men of a certain age, because even young people aren't as white as old white men.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's so interesting. I'm even even thinking about, like again, some of the spaces I'm in now. It's like the amount of sometimes mental gymnastics you have to go through to exist in spaces and like just to exist and like show up to do the job they paid you for Yep, Like I have gone into places and been like, do I need to get less nice? And they go oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But why do we have to get there? Because why, didn't?
Speaker 1:I have the same respect as everyone else Because I've been studying psychology since I was 16, baby, Like she's not new to this. But, why do I have to get to that level? But then you become the angry Black lady.
Speaker 2:Or well, I don't want to upset you, I'm not upset, I can't get upset. So this is nothing new and I think you know white women get told this too. But, like, the most common piece of feedback that I've gotten as to why I wasn't being promoted or why someone was having an issue was my tone, and I think some of it has to do with my blackness, but a lot of it is just me being a plain spoken person, like if I have something to say, I'm going to say it to you directly.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to sugarcoat it, I don't want to waste time.
Speaker 2:Words mean things. Words mean things. Why are we feeling it? And like? Again, one aspect of whiteness is this idea of like, comfortability, right, of framing your language in a way that ensures that the other person does not take offense to it. You know, I rarely raise my voice. I'm not someone that raises my voice. I don't have to. You heard what I said. You heard what I said. So it's always been interesting to me when I've gotten feedback about my tone or my delivery, sometimes comes up and listen. Can I be a little spicy? Sure, I'll give you that, but at the same time I can take as good as I could give. So if you ever have feedback for me as a colleague, as a friend, as an individual, I'm going to take it into consideration and change because of it, because that's something that I'm committed and dedicated to doing and I really only want less interested in having to like, contort myself to climb some imaginary ladder. That does not matter anyway, because we are at late stage capitalism and this is all going to crumble any second.
Speaker 1:Guys, this is all made up. It's all made up. None of this is real.
Speaker 2:It's fake. Money is fake, time is fake. We made it up, we all made this up and we were just like, yes, sure, and I'm like, but we could stop anytime we wanted. We could, we really could. We could stop doing this if we wanted to.
Speaker 1:We really wanted to, yeah when I think about like tone in workplaces, because I also teach like a communication class, because you know I do a lot, but language and words are only about 7% and so body language, right, is also a huge form of communication and let's just keep it a buck. Black people are fun. Okay, we are fun. We like to have little comments. If you get a group of Black people and a good cackle, 99% of them are going to run in different directions and laugh and bring it back in.
Speaker 2:Well, again, to me that's culturality. I don't know if that's a word, but that is something specific to Black identity. And if you talk about epigenetics and the science of DNA as it relates to ancestral understanding, there's answers for all of that. But if you don't, if you don't have the history, if you don't have the ancestral history to correspond with that, then to you it's just strange. It's like why do they do that?
Speaker 1:Oh, every time I'm with my my friend, lola, dirty Lola, y'all check her out. People are like you, y'all check her out. People are like are you guys fighting? We're like what well, you just was like, oh my god, hey, bitch. But I was like at what point did you? Well, you guys were loud and what? And every time we're like you don't have, you don't have like, have you ever?
Speaker 2:have you ever like I mean I'm sure you have attended like a luncheon or like an event with like it's? Quiet it's boring and nobody's laughing I'm like. You know what I'm leaving I don't have to be here. This feels like. This feels like work. It's a party. This is a party. I don't want to go to networking events for fun. I don't want to like. Why does your baby shower feel like a networking event? Stop, I hate it here.
Speaker 2:I don't like it. I don't like that, yeah it's. It's interesting, though, because those are the things that for me, anyway, I think make blackness, as it's dangerous to be black. It is hard be black, but those are the things that make it so worth it, honestly, because if you really sat down and thought about, like you know, the historical implications of blackness and how even now, in 2024, we are still having firsts as a community in a country that is just wild right. It is in a country that is just wild right, it is in a country that is supposed to be free and everyone has equal opportunity, etc. I sometimes I forget how actually hard it is to be black, being called the n-word in a drive-by, when you're literally but you know what?
Speaker 2:it's okay because, like I don't, I wouldn't trade it like if someone, when you're literally 10 years old, but you know what, it's okay, because, like I don't, I wouldn't trade it Like if someone came with a magic wand and was like I could trade you into a white woman today. No, thank you, I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 1:Thank you, though I appreciate that I know this struggle, but also I know like being black is so magical right, it really is. As much as people and society makes black a negative thing. Even just like black, it's bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but like, so we'll talk about this real quick. So I talked about this with another episode with a friend, because I'm only talking to my friends right now. That works. And I did shrooms during the pandemic, Okay, and I looked to my closet Micro dosing.
Speaker 2:Were you out in Josh's room? No, she was in it. Oh, it was a full dose. Okay, got it, got it, got it.
Speaker 1:I was in bed with my weighted blanket and I looked to my closet and it opened, your closet open, with all of the Black women from my family. Just like walking out, like, hey, girl, we're so proud of you.
Speaker 1:And it was like people I knew, people I didn't know, but it was so beautiful. I was like, oh my God, I come from these baddies. Yeah, like the strength and the energy that it takes to be a Black woman in life but also in the workplace, that it takes to be a black woman in life but also in the workplace. As I said before, it's like mental gymnastics of like I know I belong here and now I got to be a bad bitch to remind you.
Speaker 2:But who went? Like every day, it's exhausting Every day, every day.
Speaker 1:But then you're angry or you're frustrated and you're literally just like existing. But it's also what we don't often talk about is what I talk about with with like survivors, because it is traumas. We're navigating and waiting for the next foot to drop.
Speaker 2:So often we're not even fully showing up because we don't know.
Speaker 2:The dimming of the light is a very real thing. I was actually talking. I had a conversation with my, with my therapist, this week and I've been in therapy on and off for for years and this particular therapist has seen me through many cycles, many phases of life. Um, and she's a white woman, shout out to her. So we were talking this week and I was essentially sort of ruminating on this idea of perfection and how.
Speaker 2:You know, the specific context was that I received a check from my business and it was made out to the wrong thing. So when I tried to cash it, they were like it doesn't match the shit on your account. Try again, bitch. And I was like I have to double check and make sure that I didn't give incorrect instructions on my invoice, et cetera. Again, bitch. And I was like I have to double check and make sure that I didn't give incorrect instructions on my invoice, et cetera.
Speaker 2:So I was like you know, like making mistakes as a black woman can be real Again. You're in these spaces that are don't met for you and one misstep can have you losing your job, which can lead to you losing your housing, which can lead to losing your relationship. If you've got kids, your family is not being fed anymore. So like there are massive consequences a lot of the time for not being able to maintain that facade of I don't make mistakes. I have to show up in exactly the same way every single day, as I sold myself in in order to keep up the ruse. Basically and again, that's not human. Human like we are not. No one's capable of doing that. Also, we shouldn't have to. That's also why I started just showing up. I'm like take it or leave it. Yes, I have an attitude, and what about it?
Speaker 1:yeah, I. It's really sad, though right like you, also brought up, like we've all known, black people that will also throw you under the bus to get closer to whiteness, and I've experienced that. I always say that Black women if there was an option list, I'm like I still want to be a Black lady Because I think we are some of the most powerful. I always say we are the most duplicated and the most hated all in one body. They're mad at us, they resent us and that is wild. If I see one more girl I just got my hair done. If I see one more girl lacking melanation, trying to get some cornrows, it doesn't even matter to me anymore, I just laugh because I'm like you're going to be bald.
Speaker 2:Why can't we do it? I'm like no one said that you couldn't called it's not for you.
Speaker 1:You're going to have no edges. You see how your scalp is already red and it's go ahead, girl, do you Be us?
Speaker 2:Did you see? So there's this video that's been going around on TikTok and I actually have been thinking about it a lot. It's this straight white woman. They live in New York and she was talking about how she was. You know, they went to this lesbian bar in New York.
Speaker 1:We talked about this.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and you know they had a straight male friend that kind of just stopped by for a drink or just to say hi or whatever. And there's obviously people are posting because the TikTok algorithm. One thing it's going to do is expose whoever's lying. You will find out. Shout out to the Chinese government for that, because I'm like you know what. They literally have all my information and my likeness, but I will be finding out what the tea is anyway. So, of course, there's been posts from responding to people who were there, from the woman who actually said something.
Speaker 2:And what was interesting to me about that particular incident, and I think extrapolates into so many other situations, is like are straight men not allowed to go to lesbian bars? It's like why are you as? Why do you want to be in spaces that are not designed for you? And the same could be said of like, oh, black people wanting to be in these white spaces. But the reality is is like, if that's the status quo, if that's the default structure, then everything outside of that lacks, frankly, fundamental opportunity. Right, and even still, when you're looking at it again through this super narrow lens, there is a level of acclimation that has to happen in order for you to inhabit the space, but it doesn't work in the opposite direction.
Speaker 2:So they're so used to not having to like again, contort themselves, bend, shape and mold to spaces that are not meant for them that when they walk in they're like well, the space should always rise to meet me, or sink to meet me, as the case may be, and it's like no, I think there's a level of understanding that comes automatically with being marginalized in any way.
Speaker 2:Everything is not for me, you should stop getting cornrows. White girls should not have cornrows.
Speaker 1:No, let them get individuals, let them get. Let them get some faux locs. Be out here, like me, bald. You're going to be bald, though.
Speaker 2:There's a difference.
Speaker 1:Sometimes you have to learn the lessons the hard way. Yeah, yeah, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I think the idea that the word that comes to me is audacity, but really it is ego. I think it's a lot of ego and insecurity, sure, sure. And these are still the things that we have to navigate in all parts of our lives. But listen, I want to keep it a hundred with you I don't want to go to work, and so I already don't want to go to work, and so I already don't want to go to this place. Right, like I love the things I get to do, yeah, but do I want to go to work and have to deal with other people?
Speaker 2:I would like to be independently wealthy. I want to win the lotto yeah, but I don't play it.
Speaker 1:I keep saying it. Somebody bless me, I receive blessings and donations. I like to be sponsored. Put, put it in the universe.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, you know what I'm saying. Me too, also as well. I would also like to be sponsored and receive donations from the universe or whoever.
Speaker 1:You put up my Venmo, my cash, it's true, though there's so much that's there every day that I'm like I don't really want to do this. So then you make it hard for me to exist. But also, we are there for a reason, just like you're there for a reason. We all got hired to do our job. Why do you want to make it hard for me to not do my job? And or you don't really know what you're doing, because you bullshitted your way in and you try to use my skillset.
Speaker 2:And never had to, and never that part. That part didn't have to work half as hard as I did to get in the same space. We're at the same table, but I started way behind the starting line just by virtue of who I am.
Speaker 1:We make less money on the dollar.
Speaker 2:We talk about this every year, get promoted less frequently, less positions of power and leadership. Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep, all of it. As you said, we're already having firsts this year. Just looking at the award shows. How have these awards been around my whole life and we haven't first time?
Speaker 2:excuse me, or the second time since 1980. I'm like, guys, we have got to stop doing that. I don't want to be the first anymore. I don't want to be the first, I don't want to be the only. I think it's embarrassing. If I'm the first, then you, you should shut down your whole organization, Cause why did it take you so long? In 2020? We have AI, we've got these phones, we've got all these things that make it so that you know we have the technology. Basically is what I'm saying Black people are literally everywhere. You can find a way to steal cornrows and lips and butts and everything. All the motion, all the shit that you talk about, all of those things, washcloths yes, you find a way to take all that, and yet it's only been two of us who won this award or got this accolade, or had held this position. That uh, black uh, was president of harvard. They got rid of her ass quick. They said get that, you're out of here drive by niggering get her out of here, and they did.
Speaker 2:It took six months for that woman to ascend to a place that no other black woman has ever been seen and promptly get excused for plagiarism, which, by the way, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:Sorry this is nothing original anymore.
Speaker 2:Very few things you have the nerve. All white people in academia do is steal the audacity. Please don't get me started. Also, she cited her sources. For the record, that woman cited her sources.
Speaker 1:Y'all got me fucked up I mean, these are these are conversations that we have in the group chat. Yeah, yeah, it's true. How important is the Black Lady group chat?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean, it's a cultural institution and before it was a group chat, it was the party line, it was, you know, the brunch club, whatever it was. Before we had, you know, the ability to do our group chats, which I guess it's been a while now since we've had that ability. It's a gut check and you need multiple ones.
Speaker 2:You need the ones that you need with, like your work friends and your work people. You need the one-on-ones, like the. You have like everyone in the group chat, and then you have like a couple of side ones. You need those you have. You have the party chats. You have the chats where you go. If you need to feel validated and assured, you need your chats where it's like hey, I got some bodies. People are like, tell me when I will get my shovel, like let's go, you need different kinds. And I think, like again, when you talk about this idea of community, when you talk about this idea of belonging and cultivation, from that standpoint, I do wonder if, like, do white women have group chats like that? Like.
Speaker 1:I hope so.
Speaker 2:I feel like if they did more of them did, they wouldn't act like that, like the way that they act, they would.
Speaker 1:Well, it depends on how the group chat is flowing right, because you come in my group chat and you're like, oh my God, like girl that's wild. Why would you do that? Right, because you have to. You have to also be in a space that feels safe enough that you can be yourself where your friends can be like girl. What the hell were you thinking? Like I'm on your side, but also that was wild. Maybe we don't do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The answer is no. Yeah, exactly Exactly, and like you need. Your price is way too high. You need to cut it.
Speaker 1:What are we doing? Or no, no, no, ask for more money. Cause, let me tell you.
Speaker 2:Stephanie over here was getting nah girl, we'll submit. But again, I think, because of the nature of white supremacy culture, it is hard for people who are in it, whether they're white or not, frankly, to get out of that mindset. And it's not even about I don't even think it's about being supportive, although that is a large component. It's also about this idea that a rising tide lifts all ships. If you're doing well and I'm associated with you I'm automatically doing well by proxy Winners work with other winners. Essentially, winners surround themselves with other winners and there's I'm sure there's like a mathematical term for it, but there's a lot of odds. So the chances are, if I'm like this and you're like this and this third person's like this in the group chat, in whatever context, we're all going to be doing, know on average better because of our shared level.
Speaker 1:Essentially and I don't, I don't like white white supremacy culture does not speak to that, it just doesn't that's interesting yeah like to be able to watch from my black ass couch and to be able to watch the way that other people navigate and, I think, shout out to aging, like I am so thankful to age and like I always say that like my mom was killed when she was 24. I get to live an extra year and see more than she ever did and I'm like sometimes I'm talking to her like girl, you didn't miss that. These people are your wild, okay, but I'm so thankful to be this age that I am now, to have those experiences that I can be like, oh, I don't care. Yeah, people be like you do care. And I'm like, no, I don't, no, I don't. Do you make you care?
Speaker 2:yes, we're both like how are you gonna tell me and again, this lived experience how are you going to tell me whether or not I care? You care, I'm like. Did I say that? Was that what I said? You?
Speaker 1:should, or well, you should care, I'm like according to who says who?
Speaker 2:no, I, um. I am very grateful to be the age that I am, um, because, again, tomorrow is not promised and the things that seem really important when you're 25 or 29 or 32 or 38, just become increasingly less important the older you get. The fact of the matter is and this is my Scorpionic quality coming out Life is a zero sum game. Nobody gets out. Zero of however many people have been born so far are making it out, nobody's winning, basically. So, again, to go back to the earlier point we made, we made it up, we made it all up, and I think when you are in these moments of like fervor or frenzy and you're worried about this email or this project, or this person said this thing to you and it's it feels like the world is literally stopping on its axis. You remember, remember that you're going to die, and is this something that you want people talking about at your funeral? Embarrassing, imagine someone bringing up a typo from an email you sent or a PowerPoint.
Speaker 1:I already can't fix my face. I really have to get back to mirror work because the way my face be responding before my mouth, which is also probably not great for people before my mouth, which is also probably not great for people In all of this. I think after we've I mean not after we're still always in this pandemic right.
Speaker 2:Like it's just different. Yeah, it's part of our lives now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, being around, miss Covita keeps having kids.
Speaker 2:Not Miss Covita, she does.
Speaker 1:She's a fertile bitch Real it in girl, all these versions of yourself. But in all of this, I think it's so important and I think now, since coming out, people suddenly care more about mental health and I think mental health for black women has really been such a a beautiful space. To see people evolving in Therapy for Black girls is amazing. There's organizations that help you pay for therapy for being a Black woman because they understand again the most duplicated and the most hated. What has mental health looked like for you? When did you figure out you needed to really tap into that game?
Speaker 2:So pretty early on. Actually, I want to say it was in my late teens, early 20s, when I started to recognize and I've always been interested in psychology to your point, studying psychology since a very early age and recognizing what can happen when you don't prioritize your well, holistic wellbeing body, mind, soul. Now it's easier said than done a lot of the times and you do have to build the habit. So, just like working out, just like, you know, eating well, you do have to develop a hygiene, a spiritual and mental hygiene routine and it's very personal that works for you.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm very fortunate to not be clinical in the way that my mental health works. So I have not, knock on wood, been diagnosed with depression or bipolar disorder or mania or anything like that. But being alive is hard and when you talk about, like your levels of brain chemistry and all the science of it and how so much of that is actually out of our control, I think that's really what it boils down to. It's like within the black community, at least the ones that I was part of, mental health is not really regarded as like a real thing. It's only very it's that white thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, correct, but not. But even then, like a lot of times I actually was just having this conversation with someone there's so much that people suffer from of all, of all races, of all ethnicities, andities, and it's like, well, you just don't address it, you just ignore it and then it goes away. But literally no, it doesn't, and then the problem festers, it boils over. Next thing you know you're 20 years in to feeling like this way. It's affected your relationship with your partner. It's affected your relationship with your kids, if you have them. It's now starting to affect your relationship with your grandkids, if you have them. It's now starting to affect your relationship with your grandkids if you're old enough. And that's, that's literally the definition of generational trauma. So to me, there's a level of personal accountability and responsibility that has to happen before you with any conversation around mental health. If you cannot acknowledge the problem and this is like true with any kind of issue really, if you're dealing with addiction, if you're dealing with, again, mental health issues, if you're dealing with anything, you with addiction, if you're dealing with, again, mental health issues, if you're dealing with anything, you have to acknowledge that there's a problem first before it can begin to be solved.
Speaker 2:I think when you think about the idea of taking care of yourself or taking care of your mental health again, it's a very personal sort of thing but a lot of people don't have, I want to say, that inner dialogue or that little voice that tells you like you're unwell. Or if they have it, it's very quiet, they're not listening to it. It gets dismissed rather easily in favor of their external environment, to maintenance and care and increasing your mental health capacity and a lot of people. They are not resonant within themselves and it becomes very obvious when you're doing that work, when you interact with people who are just not there. It's like, oh, you're not connected to yourself. You don't spend you talk about mirror work. You don't spend any time looking at your own fucking eyeballs in the mirror and that's why you act like that.
Speaker 2:And that's why you act like that, and that's why you'll never, ever. You're not seeing the gates, you're not seeing the kingdom, because you haven't done your mirror work, they check it.
Speaker 1:Mirror work, not free.
Speaker 2:No, sorry, Down you go. Mirror work none for you. Sorry, down you go.
Speaker 1:Imagine, imagine.
Speaker 2:I think, as I you know most of my work has been in mental health. I've taken specific breaks. I think the work that you do is awesome. I think your entire like framing is like. I think it's so cool.
Speaker 1:That's wild. Sometimes I think it's cool too, and other times I'm like you should have baked cakes girl.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm like I should have been an accountant. I should have just sucked up the classwork at the time I was meant to do it and gotten my CPA and called it a fucking day yeah.
Speaker 1:I do think that because I've seen what it's like to work in mental health as a Black person, as a Black woman. It's really interesting because you also see how Black people are treated so much differently and that fight is different. Like I can, I worked at one place Can you give an example?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, let's hear an example.
Speaker 1:I sure can I worked at one mental health facility for teenagers which truly changed my life. I worked there two years because I was a two years per mental health, because I wanted to keep learning. It truly changed my life. But I would see children who were going through whatever kids go and just destroy whole rooms and they'd be like it's okay, steven, we'll get you into session. There was one child who he had a lot of. He had a lot of struggles, he had a lot of trauma. He was being raised by his grandmother.
Speaker 1:At this point she was the sweet black woman was just like I just need help. And most of the staff was black and brown. We're like girl, let's, how do we help? Right, and her grandson got upset and he grabbed the TV and broke it Like he threw the TV. Mind you, this TV has been tossed and tussled and broken and replaced by other children. As soon as he did this, they were like he's dangerous, we've got to get him out of here. And the way the Black staff rallied and said absolutely not. Did he still get removed? Yes, but he also needed a higher level of care, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But not because he was black.
Speaker 1:Right, but not suddenly, because now he's dangerous, when I swear to you, 48 hours before, someone else, without being black, did the same thing and they got him support and did not move to kick him out, even the ways that we try to get help and existence. And let's, let's take it back to the early 2020s, george Floyd yeah, the summer of black death is what I call it.
Speaker 2:It was a summer of black death. A lot of black people died.
Speaker 1:The way them comments were like they deserve it.
Speaker 2:Niggas, black, this, black that, and then on top of that, when there's, like literal video of this man basically being assaulted by a police officer.
Speaker 1:I went viral oh.
Speaker 2:God, that's like my worst fucking nightmare bitch.
Speaker 1:I hope I don't. Oh, but wait, Wait while I went, because I don't know if you also remember, around that time later in the summer there was a lot of Black people suddenly being lynched, yeah, and they're like these are all suicides. And I said absolutely the fuck not. I said one. That's not how Black people commit suicide, it's not like the history and it's surely not lynching. So I made a post and it was different lynches with people's names and people were like how dare you do this? Predominantly white, why?
Speaker 1:would you say this these people blah blah blah, and I said you could be mad if you want, but if you don't want to have, why would that make someone upset? I'm a liar, because you know what that is.
Speaker 2:It's pointing back to how racism is still thriving and active again work downtown exists I know we brought this up a little bit earlier, but I would just love to like just quickly double click on the idea of a sundown town and how specifically yes, tap, tap to, to, to mental health and blackness, and how we show up literally in the world. So for anyone who doesn't, tell people what that is yeah, for anyone who doesn't know, a sundown town is.
Speaker 2:It's literally a town where you're not supposed to be after sundown if you're black. And they exist all over the country, they exist all over the world and the idea of them was that, like if you were a black person that was working in the city limits or working in a certain neighborhood or whatever during the day, you had to better get your ass back to wherever the fuck you came from by the time the sun went down, otherwise there was going to be trouble for you, and that trouble could include anything from a lynching assault, murder, bodies thrown in lakes, rivers, swamps, etc. And people think that this is like. People tend to think that again, oh, that stuff only happens in Mississippi and Alabama and Georgia. Burbank, california, is the sun downtown Alabama, georgia, burbank, california, is a sundown town. Hawthorne, which is now a predominantly black and brown city. Sundown town Compton Compton, as in straight out of, used to be a sundown town, linwood, all of these places. My parents, my dad, moved to Los Angeles, loma.
Speaker 1:Linda.
Speaker 2:Loma Linda is still a sundown Loma Linda, Redlands, still scares me. So my dad's family moved to Los Angeles from Cologne, Panama, after a couple of stopovers in like Texas, I think, in Idaho, in the early sixties, early to mid sixties. So it was right after the civil civil rights act had just passed and they lived, I lived, very close to where they. I live in West Adams, Los Angeles, and I live very close to where they. I live in West Adams, Los Angeles, and I live very close to where my dad grew up, just a little bit further South, South LA used to be whites only, Like I'm talking in the hundreds, I'm talking off of Halldale, Western Avenue, Vermont, these North and South.
Speaker 2:Anyone who lives in LA knows these North and Southern uh boundaries, uh streets that are now known for like not being great neighborhoods and are being gentrified, re-gentrified, really. But they were. They were walking around, yeah, walking around, looking for places to live and wouldn't see literal whites, only signs on the lawn in Compton, California, and Hawthorne, California, and Linwood, where literally there is now a prison. So it's interesting to me the dynamic of denial that you're speaking about. I was like, well, and talking about things that are racist and talking about racist action and talking about racism is often viewed, I think, by whiteness as worse than actually being racist. As long as you're like, as long as you're like chill about your racism, then like we don't have to really bring it up. But that again it ties into ideas, the ideas of microaggression, and not talking about it is what's allowing it to continue. Because if it makes you uncomfortable to think about you know your mom being in one of those black and white photos screaming at someone.
Speaker 1:That's why they don't want to talk about it. Cause, let's look at it, it wasn't that long ago.
Speaker 2:It wasn't, yeah, yeah. So it's just, and to me it's like I experienced a lot of like terminal frustration with this cause. I don't think it'll change in our lifetime and systemically, we are all so trained to like avoid the landmines that for people like me and maybe you, when you're in these spaces and you're like I've literally been in work meetings and seen content that was being reviewed, assets that are being shown and been like who looked at this? That's literally racist and people and people like, like. But I'm like why?
Speaker 1:is it more shocking that I said that this is racist than you? The fact that they'd be shocked is the most my favorite part. I'm like are you serious, are you?
Speaker 2:So there was. So I worked at um. It was basically like a startup. I want to say this was like 2013, 2014. So at this point it's been 10 years.
Speaker 2:But it was again me and one other black woman in the space Um, and we had we. We were both PR people. So you know, they were confusing us all day long. And, by the way, we look nothing alike, like we are. We look nothing alike, act nothing alike. When I tell you, I got an email one time from I think he was on the finance team and was like hey, you and I had a meeting last week about X, y, z thing and I just want to follow up and ask you for a little bit more documentation. I said I'm going to stop you right there. My guess is that you probably have this meeting with this other person. I'm going to loop her in. We're actually two different black women, but thank you for your note. And people on that chain were like but I'm like, why is it okay for him to literally confuse me with another black person and send a note detailing their entire conversation? But I can't point it out.
Speaker 1:Because now you're being difficult, you're being mean. You're being a bully.
Speaker 2:This still happens to me and I'll be that.
Speaker 1:The audacity might be like oh my God, you look like so-and-so. No, I don't, I have been like walked over and I'm like'm, and me and her have looked at each other and been like where, it's because we're black, it's because we both got short hair.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people that's black with short hair, but also like, and again, no, no insult to the woman that I get compared to because they're quite often yeah, exactly, it's like take the extra six seconds. I actually saw a study that basically said that white people can't tell black people apart, like there's something in their brain that does not allow them to process when, when black people don't look like other black people see this and be like which one is shimadika, which one's sarissa in this?
Speaker 1:I don't know. It's so ridiculous that you know it's an everyday life navigation. Then, when you just try to make money because we like nice things, yeah, and the things you've studied for?
Speaker 1:do you got bills to pay? And I like nice things, yeah, um, like, what has it looked like for you to not leave these spaces? Like, how have you maintained your mental health? How have you maintained your livelihood outside of work? How have you maintained your relationships to allow you to exist in these spaces that, again, essentially weren't built for us. They just had to let us in because we're baddies and we just know a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, it is what it is. I don't make the rules, okay, you guys did it's actually. I love this question because it's a process and it's a journey and I think things have changed a little bit. Like, even in my lifetime they've changed. A lot of the jobs that I've had throughout the course of my career did not exist when I was graduating from college, like they, just like I literally had to be at the tip of the spear again first and only. I don't want to do that anymore.
Speaker 2:But because you know, even within the last, again 20 years of a career, you have people who are like, oh, if you can do it, then I see that modeled. There is something that is gratifying and fortifying about that, because I didn't have that example necessarily like walking into these spaces. I go out of my way and make it a point to have those interactions again, in particular with younger Black women. I have a mentee that I've been working with since 2020. And when I met her she was 26, 27 years old. Now she's, you know, now she's a woman in her thirties and she's like, you know, when you said X, y, z all that time ago, I'm realizing like, oh, this is what that looks like. Cause I think again, if you never, if you never had the example, and even if you know you went to the right schools and you did all these things and you've had experience navigating these spaces, each environment that you're in is going to be a different sort of experience. So when I think about you know the question through the lens of okay, so I'm in the space now and I'm having to learn how to navigate it and duck and dodge accordingly, how do I, how do I show up comprehensively, how do I not let this consume me? And to go back to the conversation around mental health, personally I work out and I have an incredible group of friends. I have an incredible community that I've cultivated over many, many years.
Speaker 2:I age again, getting older, recognizing when something is not worth your time, when something cannot be helped, and being able to release it gracefully is a big thing that I think therapy helps with. Um, to kind of close the loop on the conversation I was having my therapist earlier, she was talking about this again. We're talking about this idea of perfection and being able to show up and make mistakes effectively, and she was telling me about a book she read by Stephen Hawking I can't remember the name of it, but she basically said that this book, I mean she talks about you know the universe and physics and all this stuff and evolutionary theory and how, like, without essentially an error in the chain link, you don't get evolution If everything is working as exactly as it should. If you're maintaining the status quo, then you never get to evolve. So without these experiences that I've had that do not feel good, feel bad at the time, feel like setbacks, et cetera, we would not be learning the lessons that we're learning and I think again very scorpionic, but I think that is an essential part of this existence.
Speaker 2:Generosity and gratitude are huge parts of this. Believe it or not, I give freely. It's something that I enjoy doing, I love being of service. But but the asterisk on that I mean the context that you and I met. I think about that night often, and at this point it was years ago, and all the people that I've met and come across from that night have remarked to me that that experience was so unusual. It's so rare that you get to be in a space like that with people like that, and what's understood does not need to be explained and whenever I show up, I try to make that the default vibration. Like, I understand you, I see you, so you do not have to explain yourself to me unless you feel compelled to, unless you have something that you want to share.
Speaker 2:I think, um, showing up again with that generosity and that gratitude, it's a flywheel. So the more grateful I am for everything that happens to and with and by and for me, good and bad, the more I will receive goodness and abundance and growth, et cetera, which are all things that I'm actively seeking in my life. The other thing is that, just fundamentally and functionally, I think the meaning of life is to live it. So you have to kind of approach things with both hands open and a level of enthusiasm and gusto which looks different for everybody that you know. You wake up, you face the day and you're going to get through it. And again, I think that's a big part of mental health too, because sometimes when you're in those valleys, you do want to give up. You're like what if I just laid here until the Lord comes and gets me?
Speaker 1:Whisper something nice to me, something it's true yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think all those things are important. And then again, like functionally, like, of course, I like a good massage, I, like you know, I take good care of my skin and like I make sure I take care of my skin too.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:It's also part of you. Yeah, I mean, you're glowing right now, I see, I see, I see the glow, but all those things are important. But I think sometimes we get bubble bath, or I need, you know, I need to work out, et cetera. All of those things are part of it. But again, the real work comes in when you're able to sort of integrate those things and internalize the feeling that they give you. Also, again, therapy is. I advocate for therapy. Finding the right therapist is key.
Speaker 1:That part.
Speaker 2:But anytime that you can talk to an, in theory, objective third party your friends are not your therapist. Stop asking your friends for advice, Literally Like unless it's like a one-off thing and you're just like looking for confirmation of your own ideas or perhaps a slightly different perspective. No, your, your girlfriends, don't care about your man. Don't take it. If you're, if you've been, if you've been with your husband for 20 years, like I have, why are you taking advice from your single girlfriends or vice versa? You know what I mean. Look at people who have what you want or have been trained to look at your situation and talk to them. Stop asking broke bitches for advice if you are trying to get money.
Speaker 1:Clearly they don't know. They also don't know, they don't know, and that's not.
Speaker 2:That's not to disrespect a broke bitch, because, listen, broke bitches have their place too. But why would I? Why would I ask a broke bitch if I want to get money? She doesn't know, and that's no diss to her.
Speaker 1:Like, if you want to get money, talk to a bitch who's got money that's fair you might learn something if you could give tips to like young black women that are navigating new workspaces. That like got their dream job and now they're like, uh, like there's a whole movie on hulu about a black. I gotta watch it. It's like a black woman that's in an office just come out new black woman comes in. Yeah, I think about like oh it's a horror movie.
Speaker 2:It's a. It's a horror movie. The other black girl right is that what it's called? Yes, yeah, I haven't watched it yet. I might need to watch that. I feel, like it might be triggering.
Speaker 1:honestly, Honestly Okay, well, we're going to stay positive here. Yes, yes, Okay, okay, okay, If you could give any young Black woman a tip, as they're finding their dream job finding their dream job getting in the spaces and or just going to a job where they deserve it.
Speaker 2:But there's people there that make them feel like they don't. Imposter syndrome yeah, I think the standard advice for these kinds of things is so interesting because it's like you deserve it, you, you earned your spot there and like, yeah, all that, sure it's not. And also like laugh, love. But it's, and it's hard to internalize that when you don't have Sure it's not. And also like Live, laugh, love. And it's hard to internalize that when you don't have that feeling. It's hard to like imagine feeling like you deserve something when you literally nothing in the environment indicates that.
Speaker 1:Doesn't want you there.
Speaker 2:Here's what I'll say is and this is I'm caveating this, I'm putting an asterisk on it the way that I live my life is not for everyone. You really do have to be willing to take the dubs and the L's in the same, with, with, with stride. The more I've been able to stand up for myself in these environments, the better my experience has gotten, and sometimes that means needing to leave the environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would never, at this stage of my life, prioritize the function of work, meaning like the status, the title, the identity that I associate with whatever space I'm in over feeling good about being in it. So if every day I'm in this space and it makes me feel like I want to die, I gotta go, I gotta cut it loose. Um, if someone talks crazy to you, it is your human, it is a human right. And again I this again controversial. Rules are rules are fake. They're made up up.
Speaker 2:Who said that I have to do anything you tell me to do? The idea of like no, but for real, though, like who? Like the idea of like people getting in trouble for something? And again, like obviously there are laws. Like you shouldn't still lie, kill objectively.
Speaker 2:I think there's exceptions to every rule, but let's just say that those are the table stakes. But when someone's like I don't want someone to be mad at me, I don't want to get in trouble, fuck that. You know what I mean. Like you can get mad and we can fight about it and then we can move on. Like everyone in here is a grownup, as an adult, the amount of overt conflict I've had in workplaces. Again, I cannot, in good conscious, recommend this necessarily to everyone, but what I'm saying is, if you find yourself in a situation where, well, like, if you find yourself in situations where, like, your autonomy is being stepped on, you're being mistreated on a fundamentally human level, first of all, document it and snitch. Get yourself a lawyer and snitch, because those settlements are no joke, girl, you get the right one.
Speaker 1:You know what Can we pause real quick?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because I think because, and I hate snitches, by the way but there's some context when it's necessary.
Speaker 1:But we live in LA and we are a. We will sue you, happy kind of place A hundred percent A hundred percent and I want Black women to know as I know documentation works. Take it to court, because I did have to get some lady fired because she tried me and I documented everything. They were like oh my God, we've never. Nah, because she's not about to go and make it up like I'm.
Speaker 2:Delulu.
Speaker 1:Correct, so document.
Speaker 2:That's what I just want people to document. You have a fucked up conversation with someone. They want to talk to you in text. They want to talk to you async.
Speaker 2:Screenshot screenshot screenshot screenshot send an email, be like per our conversation. Open up a Google doc, write the date, write the subject document bullet points. Keep it short and sweet, factual. Only you will. You might save your life, you might make some money off of it. So there's that part. But there's also the part where it's like again, and this is some of this is just endemic to me, some of this is just my personality.
Speaker 2:But I had a boss in my one of my very early jobs as work at an agency and he was a white gay man and he just was kind of like a dick, like it was like, you know, and that was like the era of like. If you worked at a talent agency, your, your, your boss was throwing staplers at you, like it was giving devil wears product, but for no reason really. And he would come for me quite a bit Like because I. The other thing is like. But again, and I think when you show up with your whole chest people, there's like just an instinct to like, try to. I have to, I have to break her down, I have to like, like, like they're breaking a book or something. But he had no idea who he was. Yeah, he had no idea what he was doing. So there was one instance where I wrote a newsletter, like I drafted a newsletter for one of our clients, and he gave me feedback that the newsletter was bizarre and upsetting Like he's. He called my writing and you know what he might've been right. He said this is bizarre and upsetting. You were thinking about it. I'm like why would you say that Just give me the edits and let's keep it moving? Anyway, I said. I replied back and I was like you're, this is crazy. I can't believe you talk to people like this and I'll do it. I'll do it one-on-one and I will do it the email chain the same way. I was like listen, I think you've mistaken me for the other black woman that works here. There's really only two of us, so you should be able to tell us the part.
Speaker 2:But sometimes people are afraid to say things in front of an audience. I guess the long and short of what I was saying is that you need to sack up, don't be afraid to use your voice. You're not going to go to jail for doing it. Well, you might, because you're Black, but it won't be because you did it. It'll be because life is unfair. But you have to be brave enough and love yourself enough to stand up for yourself, and in doing that again, you set an example for others who are in the space.
Speaker 2:I can't even tell you how many times people are like, wow, I really chicken shit, because like if you saw some fucked up shit happening and you didn't say anything about it, I see you, but you being empowered again lifts the tide. It empowers the whole environment and, as I said, we made this up. You don't have to stay in places that make you feel like shit. You might need to find another job first, but let them know in the meantime, while I'm still here, we're going to regard each other with a basic level of human decency and respect, and there's really no other option. I'm not going to tolerate it, and you can do that in ways that are professional and straightforward and kind and using language that doesn't have cuss words in it or whatever it is. I'm excellent at doing that, but I also need to let people know that I am not the one, the two or the three.
Speaker 1:Delivery. I knew this was going to be a good time. I just knew my morning A 9 am call time. We showed up today. We were on Just magical. That's how you start the day my protein shake.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So I have one last question to ask all my guests and truly it's because I'm nosy and I want to see what's happening what is the wildest thing in the last two weeks that someone has either texted or dm'd you and you can define wild okay, I was like, because my question was how fun? Answers whatever.
Speaker 2:Everyone has had different answers and I'd love all of them so, my friends and I, we do a lot of exploration and discussion around pop culture, um, uh oh it's a lot happening right now.
Speaker 1:I'm like what is this?
Speaker 2:I'm like what do you mean? Does that have to be personal? I just think like so again, we're recording this during Black History Month. Drake's uh, he released a video.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to get into it.
Speaker 2:I'm already out that somebody sent me the churro where someone oh, no, I just so that comes up, and we suspect that he leaked it himself, because there's no absolutely.
Speaker 1:How does that get absolutely?
Speaker 2:he was in the room alone. I don't. Who did you send that to? It's giving me agita. Um, that's pretty wild. And then, just like everyone's going through something right now, I think.
Speaker 1:It's an election year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people are experiencing there's like a. I think the illusion has been fractured, the illusion has been shattered. We're looking at celebrity in different ways. We're looking at you know, the Grammys just happened. People are like what the fuck was that? And I think when we think about like wild, it's like oh, that's unbelievable. But something unbelievable happens every single day and I'm a pretty hard person to shock, but it's really just. I think it's just a sign of the time.
Speaker 2:So really my question or my statement would be if you're not getting something, you know at least once a week, that's wild, whether it's in a personal life where it's like I can't believe this bitch said this thing to me.
Speaker 2:Also, my life on purpose is kind of boring, so my friends and I are all very normal.
Speaker 2:On purpose is kind of boring, so my friends and I are all very normal, but like I have a again, I have a girlfriend that, like her sister-in-law um, and just for context, this is a, this is a Brown family. They're not white she married into well, not fully white, I think, maybe dad, dad is white, but basically my friend is married to the brother of, uh, this man who married a white woman and she's pregnant right now and she essentially is at war with her mother-in-law, with their mother-in-law, and they live in a different state and they drove like some baby stuff over because she's due pretty soon, I think. But she basically was like calling her mother-in-law petty and telling her that she didn't want to deal with her like shit and just like like cussing out this woman who has basically gone above and beyond to kind of make this experience a first grandbaby. So everyone's like really excited and to me that's wild, because how do you marry into a family and then proceed to cuss them out?
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? Like how do you wouldn't be my family?
Speaker 2:Let me tell you so like in terms of the definition of wild. Something wild happens for me on an almost daily basis, but I would have to say my number one thing is is Drake's lead to nude? Because I actually can't believe that he wasn't too ashamed to do that. To me that's wild.
Speaker 1:It's wild that he lacked the level of shame that should have been present to to have that appear on the internet. I blame megan talking about bbls. I think that was a response he didn't have time to make a rap, he said I got really honest.
Speaker 2:Nikki minaj and her fans, I mean again. I could go on all day wilds.
Speaker 1:She let her fans write that song it's really just again.
Speaker 2:I think there's been a fracture in the matrix and it's going to get worse before it gets better. But worse is like again. Worse doesn't worse objectively means bad, but like it doesn't mean it's going to get worse for you, it's just going to get more wild. Essentially, it's going to get more shocking before it gets less shocking. I think We'll see how it goes.
Speaker 1:I think that's where we end it. Buckle up everyone. Sarissa has predicted that it's about to get wild. You lucky she didn't pull out no cards and shit.
Speaker 2:You are lucky. Actually, before we go do, should we do a little tarot pull. Oh my god, hold on hold on duh.
Speaker 1:Wait, not duh, not duh, absolutely I always have. I'm so glad you asked.
Speaker 2:I always have a deck handy. I always have a deck nearby um, you need to read somebody.
Speaker 2:Listen or check the vibes. We've already had the conversation a lot of times. Before I start these conversations, I like to pull a card just to kind of see what the thematic is. Ace of Cups Reverse Ace energy is enthusiastic. It's a little aggressive. It's like warrior energy, like young soldier energy, like battlefield energy. Ace of Cups Cups is a water suit. So basically we're being. I think maybe the negative purview of this is emotionally aggressive, but the positive is emotionally honest, emotionally raw, emotionally straightforward.
Speaker 1:I'll receive that for us.
Speaker 2:Which is fitting because the literal name of the podcast is Trauma Queen. So, ace of Cups, let's talk about it.
Speaker 1:This was so fun.
Speaker 2:Thank you for putting me on.
Speaker 1:This is great, this is what I knew it was going to be. Okay, if you want, where can the girls nims, theys, hims find you? You don't have to. You can say, nowhere, I don't care, I am.
Speaker 2:You can Google me to a certain extent. My Instagram is r to the issa. That's a modification on a J. I was a big Jay-Z fan when the internet first started back in the day and I just never changed the name I probably should have. I probably should change my name. I was going to give my LinkedIn, but don't look for me on LinkedIn, you can probably find me.
Speaker 2:I know you're a grownup. Yeah, I was like don't actually, don't look for me on LinkedIn. Instagram is fine. R to the ISSA I can't get you a job. Don't look at my Instagram. I can't help you. Do not message me. I don't, I can't do it, I can't do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just hope y'all all take some gems from this and, like I always say, take what feels good for you, leave the rest, but also you're welcome.
Speaker 2:You are welcome, congratulations you.
