Trauma Queen
"The Trauma Within" is a weekly podcast hosted by Jimanekia, a Trauma and Sexual Assault expert, queer media consultant, and comprehensive sex educator. Join us as we normalize conversations about life's most challenging experiences, from sexual assault to mental health and beyond. Discover stories of resilience, expert insights, and a safe space for discussing some of life's most complex topics. Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/traumaqueen/support
Trauma Queen
The Trauma Within Navigating Purity Culture and Self-Acceptance W/ Jess Ambrose
Do you have any questions, any comments about the episode? Jimanekia would love to hear from you!
Have you ever felt trapped by the expectations and dogmas imposed on you by your upbringing? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Jess Ambrose, who courageously shares her journey from evangelical Christianity to becoming a self-accepting podcaster. Jess opens up about the mental health battles she's faced along the way, the importance of centering herself amidst external pressures, and her heartfelt bond with the host, forged through the podcasting world.
What happens when purity culture shapes your views on body, sexuality, and personal worth? Jess candidly discusses the stringent moral expectations from her childhood environment, and how they clashed with her home life and queer identity. This conversation highlights the long-lasting impacts of such teachings, shedding light on the struggles of growing up with conflicting messages about sexuality and self-worth. Jess's story emphasizes the importance of supportive communities and the liberating process of unlearning harmful beliefs.
Tune in to hear how Jess found joy and peace in the acceptance of uncertainty. We explore the transformative power of open dialogues and the emotional growth that comes from stepping away from conservative religious contexts. From the influence of impactful podcasts to the joy of finding simplicity and presence in daily life, Jess's journey is a testament to the empowering process of shedding old beliefs and embracing a healthier self-identity. Don't miss this heartfelt episode as we unpack life changes through meaningful conversations and personal growth.
Thank you all for listening. Set a boundary with yourself this week, set a boundary with someone else. If someone else does not respect that boundary. LET THEM LOOSE YOU! Stay hydrated internally and externally. We do not have an ashy family.
IG: @The_Trauma_Within
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thetraumawithin
Jimanekia Ig: @Jimanekia
Jess Ambrose is an ex-evangelical, ex-wardrobe stylist who took a turn in her life after she got pregnant and then dove into the world of podcasting as one of the hosts of Chatty Rob's, where they discuss everything from spiritual deconstruction to reality television. Jess now hosts a podcast with her husband and partner of 18 years called your Mom and Dad, and is still on a journey as she shares with her audience about her spirituality, mental health and more Y'all. This talk was so interesting and I really hope that you get a peek into something maybe you don't really know about. So buckle up. We got Jess. Y'all, y'all. This is this first off. I'm super excited to have this conversation is the bio speaks for itself, the intro, but this human and I have such an interesting relationship and conversations and I'm I'm excited for this one for y'all, and so we've heard the bio. My first question for everyone is always the same and people always make a face but who are you? That's a great question.
Speaker 2:I'm like we're going free very sensitive, I like people, I like creativity, I like human energy and I think, by nurture I have become someone who struggles with tendencies of perfection, with people pleasing and holding myself back, and I am Jess who is, I guess, on this forever journey to try to get back to my nature and to learn how to blend all of those in a good way, or in a way that makes me feel good, I should say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we love centering of self here, because there's enough people trying to steal our joy. So, yay, and I'm so happy to be here with you. I'm excited. This is going to be good. How did we meet?
Speaker 2:So we met via the podcast space because I discovered you and your beautiful soul and self on Instagram and so we connected on there and I was like, will you please come on our podcast, chatty Broads?
Speaker 2:And I feel like the moment that you entered into the home, I was just so immediately drawn to your energy and I just felt I mean, I know I'm sure you hear this 24-7 and we can get into this too but just your calming energy, while simultaneously being this badass who has a million things that you're doing and helping and optimizing 24-7. And so I'm like I love our conversation and the things that you brought to our audience were so beneficial and helpful and just meant so much. But then, personally, outside of that, then I was like, can I remain in your sphere at all possible? Is that okay? And, um, you know, I feel like that's how you and I met and then since then, you're just one of those people in my life that you know. We see each other often from afar, on the social media, but whenever then I'm with you, it feels like old friend.
Speaker 1:That's how I've always felt I really like my friends. They really gas me the fuck up.
Speaker 2:Well, you should be gassed the fuck up all the time, because you're one special human being, that's for sure from one tired bitch to another.
Speaker 1:I see you, um. I also love your home because you have someone in there that I'm a huge fan of. Uh, a little gem that you birthed. I'm like, please tell em Amber, I'm her biggest fan always. Oh my.
Speaker 2:God bless you. I'm like she will take that that human being is. We were in the store yesterday and we were just like at the checkout counter grabbing groceries and she just looked at me and she's like, oh God, I love myself so much and I'm like that is what we're looking for, that's what I'm trying to do. You need to take a class.
Speaker 1:Is she teaching classes? We need to get into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get the classes daily.
Speaker 1:As she's on your mug. I love this. What does trauma mean to you?
Speaker 2:Trauma to me. I mean just the general definition that hits me, and what it means to me is it's something that's terribly negative that has happened, an event or a series of events that have happened that then have a remaining effect, emotionally and physically, on future. You, um, that's how it hits me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um, all of my friends that I've asked. I asked them what do you want to talk about? Some people are like ready, I've been waiting for someone to let me talk about this, and other people are like I don't know. You were like religion and purity culture, Thank you. I was like cake For the folks that haven't listened to our original conversation on chatty broads, go back. Yeah, because we also discovered that I went to a christian college.
Speaker 2:You were like what I know, I was like oh, I felt you from afar I see you, I knew you, I felt, I feel like we can really just kind of feel the energy of another it was.
Speaker 1:I always. I always say that I went to Cal Baptist university, my second where I got my actual degree, and I always say it was the best information and support I ever got. But also I was like I don't want most of this. This is a lot.
Speaker 2:The perfect, the perfect definition. Yeah, Because it's, I know for myself. I'm like, yeah, I learned a lot there and I'm going to probably leave a lot of it behind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, let's get it. This is going to be a time Before we even really dive in, as it 'll happen. What is purity culture for folks that are like I've seen a movie, I've heard about it, sure, what the fuck is that?
Speaker 2:So purity culture is, I would say. You know there's different forms where it comes in, but I would say it's very evangelical, typically very evangelical, focused Christianity and it's the need. They say the need to abstain from sex before marriage. So that's like the broad strokes, like you're not sleeping with anybody before you get married to that person. But what that also then ends up entailing is it has everything that comes with it that that specific community would consider sexuality contracts, that you will not do anything sexual with anyone else. It's very shame focused because the energy is simultaneously don't do this. But also, once you get married, you better step up and do this. So it's very confusing to the youth Also, at least in the church that I was raised in, it was extremely oppressive to the queer community, so that wasn't even like a question, that was a no-go.
Speaker 2:So anyone with their gender identity, anyone with their sexuality, there's no questions that you can ask. And I think, specifically for myself as a woman, one of the big things was it simultaneously was something that you couldn'testy piece. You know you're looking at small children and saying in my community it was like you can't wear anything. That's like showing your body at all, like not even your arms. You're wearing skirts, you can't wear pants because if you show anything, you're going to cause a male to stumble sexually, to stumble sexually. So there's this pressure of okay I'm. I remember being like 10 years old and being like I can't ask any questions about sexuality, but yet I have this backpack of shame. I'm wearing that if I show a little part of me, well, a man is going to sin, and that is purity culture to me, fuck me.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm like, oh God, yay. So let's pull back a bit. Who was younger, jess? Who were you in the church? What did your church?
Speaker 2:look like. What was your family like? Started going to a church. The church was hyper conservative and from there I ended up going to a school for most of my life that was part homeschooler, part-time, small private school. And that small private school was extremely hyper-focused on purity culture, extremely conservative. Like I was saying, we weren't allowed to wear pants, like I had to wear dresses. I couldn't have anything showing my arms. If I wanted to address an adult, I had to stand up. It was extremely, extremely strict, militant to a certain degree, but what was so strange? And then the church when I was really young was like that too.
Speaker 2:But what was interesting for me is that my actual parents, like my biological parents, were conservative, but they didn't hold so tightly to all of those narratives At home. I could ask more questions. My parents were never like you can't wear that. But I was raised in a church and then a school that was so shame-filled that I ended up and that's such an interesting dynamic to me that I'm like, even though my parents weren't nearly as strict because of the shame, I'll never forget the day where I think I was 10 or 11 and we were going on vacation and I had a tankini at the time, a little bit of stomach show and a spaghetti strap, and I told my mom we need to go shopping. I can't wear this and my mom's like, why not? I'm like, well, it's not appropriate. And I felt a lot of shame. So I had to then go get this full coverage because I felt shame.
Speaker 2:At the school that I was currently at and I think, young me, I was introverted, but I felt free and creative and then in the space that I was in, everything was hyper-focused on the sin nature that you're a sinner, you'll always be a sinner, by the grace of God. Hopefully you can get better. But that was the hyper-fixation. So anything that I was interested in, you know, I remember bringing Pokemon cards to school and I got pulled into the principal's office and it's like this is evolution, this is sinful, you cannot have these. And then it was always made very public. So there was just this constant that that was the narrative that I was surrounded by.
Speaker 2:So sex, it's like having two sides, yes, and it was interesting because, as I've been thinking about this as I've gotten older, I'm like, yes, my mom was very conservative at the time but, like I said, not even close to what I was dealing with every day at school or at church. But it's really hit me how powerful the environment now as a parent that you put your child in, because it's like, even as much as I will do my best parenting, I'm like if I'd be putting my kiddo in that environment, like I see how it affected me, even when my mom was like you can have Pokemon cards, but I was like no, no, I can't, because when I go to school it's looked at as sinful, and what child wants to be told that they're a bad person? Right? So I'm like I'm going to avoid everything that they are saying is bad, because I don't want to be a bad person, I want to be a good person.
Speaker 1:Damn. I also hear like your body was made aware to you before you realized your own body.
Speaker 2:Yes Well, that's a great way of putting it yes, A thousand percent. And it was like I said. It was strange because it's this simultaneous like hyper fixation on sex and the body, but also don't have any sexual thoughts or don't even think about your body. Sexual thoughts or don't even think about your body, even in adulthood. The place where I came from it's like masturbation is a sin. So there was then that deep shame attached to your body. You can't talk about it, you can't think about it.
Speaker 2:And it was so interesting now looking back and I'm sure you can resonate with this one that often, when there'd be any sort of groups where they would break in, you know, break the body of the men are over here and the women are over here, and on the men's side they talk about pornography and on the women's side and abstaining from pornography, and on the women's side they talk about how these are all the things you can do that will stumble your brother in Christ, aka these men. So even on the you know the quote unquote women's side, the conversation about sex wasn't even happening. It was just more like your body is this temptation station for everyone. So don't look at it, don't talk about it, avoid it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's's like how do I avoid myself? You want me to just like sleep or what's. What are the options here? And also it's like in my brain I also hear you're so fucking powerful that you are going to distract this person. Because you're so powerful, they just cannot not want your body. It's like what. I'm a child so.
Speaker 2:I'm literally a child. Yeah, did sex, ed what?
Speaker 1:Exist. No, no. So how do you prepare to have sex later?
Speaker 2:You know, for me it varied for everyone. Um, sex ed did not exist. I never was in a single sex ed class. Um, I harvested information where I could. That's how, how I figured it out.
Speaker 2:Um, and what I figured out, by the way, was often quite wrong and often quite patriarchal. Let's just put it that way. Because you know, I would go, I get in my car once and this is like again, this is through my whole life. So even when I'm 16, I'm getting in my car to drive and I would turn on morning talk radio and they'd be, you know, talking about sex and I'm like harvesting information from Loveline. You know, that's where I'm learning certain things. And then, you know, every once in a while you'd have a kid that you were exposed to who could explain certain things. And then, thank God, when the internet came around, I could kind of do some research.
Speaker 2:But again, but again, when it came down to it, I felt very, I did feel very blessed in the situation that, because my parents weren't, like I said, nearly as hyper conservative, that when I was older I could have a little bit more of a conversation with my family, with my mother. But most of my friends literally walked into marriages not knowing anything about sex and, more importantly, not knowing anything about their own boundaries and their bodies and what they wanted or desired, and then double down with that, like I talked about, too, any of my friends who were part of the queer community. That was just a no-go. So then that's being repressed. I know for myself, I'm bisexual and that wasn't anything that I ever had the opportunity to explore because it was just not allowed. Yeah, you know that's so shit.
Speaker 1:There's no like no, no, it's just like I love that we're able to. You know I love laughing through trauma but it's same.
Speaker 2:It helps heal me personally absolutely.
Speaker 1:There's also like we're laughing, but there's so many people that are still deeply within purity culture and religion, growing up in religion for yourself after this. Were there folks within your church or around you that weren't necessarily as connected to purity culture, or were they one in the same?
Speaker 2:I'd say the school that I went to when I was homeschooled it was everyone, but definitely the churches that I went to, there were people that were just Sunday goers and just enjoyed the message. The way I was raised is we were always extremely involved in the church and were in like leadership positions, and so at a very young age, I was taking on certain leadership positions as well, um, like worship team, you know, leading Bible studies, and all this at a at a very young age, like even in high school. Um, so I had to live by a different standard. So there were definitely people around me where they weren't living the same way via purity culture, like I was. And it's so funny because I remember so many people who were in similar positions as me being like, wow, we got to pray for them. You know they're living in sin, da, da, da. And I remember we were just watching and being like wow, that seems nice.
Speaker 2:But I'm just trying to put on a smile. I do want to try it. No, it's just like I have so many questions. You know that's where I would get some of my information from too. When I'd have like a one-on-one, I wouldn't be sitting with someone and being like well, this is what you should do instead I'd be like. So tell me about your night last night. How was that date Interesting?
Speaker 1:What was dating like? Did you get to date?
Speaker 2:I did Um in high school. I dated. I actually dated someone for a while who was on the worship team, and that was again. My parents were more flexible, so we were dating, but it was, like you know, hyper strict rules around what we could do. There was no physicality that was allowed and the parents were pretty much always around. But what was interesting about that person? I dated and, wow, that was a journey.
Speaker 2:He is gay and so we were dating for numerous months and one day I ended up finding out, via something that happened with him, that he was gay. And so we then had this conversation where we sat down and he was like I'm in a leadership position, I can't be exposed. I don't know how I feel about all this. Will you not say anything? And I loved him so much, I adore him, and so I was like I won't tell anyone.
Speaker 2:So we kept dating for a while just to protect him so that he didn't get exposed at the church, and then eventually he removed himself and bless him. Now is like living this beautiful life. And he left and I just adore him. He left and I just adore him, but he was a gateway for me to. Really, I didn't know anyone who was out at the time and he wasn't but he was open with me and so that was a huge window for me to see the pain, like the unbelievable pain that he was going through, this beautiful human being who did so many amazing things for people, and just how he was feeling and and and how he had to walk through that in secrecy. Um, but then I ended up I did start dating my husband my now husband in high school and you've been together that long yes, can you believe?
Speaker 2:it's literally been like 19 years. We had like one break for a year and a half you're like dibs, let's just stay seriously keep it.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm gonna keep them. Um, but when we started dating, we were, yes, dating, but there were so many rules, and not only that, there were constant check-ins about very personal things with the families. So it was like, you know, you are a grown person at this point and the family is like we'd have to sit down. What have you done sexually lately? Like I mean, it was that was, were you forthcoming most of the time? Yeah, sometimes I was like no, I can't, it's too much, I'm gonna, we're gonna get absolutely cooked for this, but we'd give them little.
Speaker 2:We'd give them little like partial truths.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow how did that feel? To like I am independent, I have this person and I'm trying to build a relationship or whatever. And then they're like great, great, great, come tell us about it, sit down, let's get our spotlight your asses up, literally, literally.
Speaker 2:It felt extremely violating. Yeah, it felt like extremely violating.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It felt like you know okay. So you the other day sent me this and I almost, my heart almost exploded. You sent me the song from Maddie Zahm. You Might Not Like Her, but I Do. Oh, and I'm not joking. You sent that to me as I was walking into a Maddie Zahm concert. It was like it was my spiritual moment. I was like this is. I was looking around for you. I'm like are you here?
Speaker 2:It was a moment, but there is there is a line in that song where she says one day you'll learn to keep your own secrets. And I'm telling you, when I listened to that song for the first time and I heard that, I was like dry, heaving, crying, and it hit something that I hadn't recognized. So many other things in that song were so powerful and it hit me like not being able to explore who I am, sexually keeping everything repressed body image issue, all of these things but that when I heard, one day you'll learn to keep your own secrets, that did a doozy on me, because I realized that I was never, ever allowed to keep a secret. I was never allowed to have something private for me, and that's what that felt like trying to date and having not only you know our families being like tell us checkmark through everything you've done recently and then the shame in that but also because we were both in positions where our families were in leadership at this church at the time and we were in leadership that there were people who were microscope lens on us all the time and giving their opinions about our relationship or seeing us out and reporting back. Like it was.
Speaker 2:Just there was no privacy and so when I'd sit and mom would be like, well, what happened this week? And you'd have to expose this very sacred, private, beautiful moment that I had with my partner, who I loved so very much, and then that was looked on and spoken about that as a shameful way, even though we weren't raised this way has always been so focused on my boundaries and so focused on loving me in in a sexual space in such a caring way. So to me it was always such a beautiful loving experience and then it would be written off in as shame when it was exposed. So that was also. It felt violating, it also felt very confusing and you know, I know then friends who were in similar situations what it did for them is it made them have a view of sexuality, and their own sexuality, as something that they just couldn't come face to face with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's always been looked at as the negative, so why would you want to face it?
Speaker 2:Of course, but then the twist is like my friends and I always joke about this, it was like it's always the negative. But the second that you'd announce your engagement and there'd be that bridal party, everyone would be coming out of the woodworks handing you the craziest lingerie and being like so what type of dance are you? And you're like what it's so confusing. And then it's like you're going to be pleasing your husband, and that's the twist too. Then it all becomes about your husband's pleasure, where it was just you are a sexual object, but you can't see yourself as that. And then one day you become a wife and you have to be the apple of your husband's eye and it's all about his pleasure. And even if you don't want to, you just got to have as much sex as possible, or else he's going to watch porn or he's going to leave you. And that was just the narrative Purity culture is always about someone else.
Speaker 1:Like when was it ever about you? Like when did you find joy? Yeah, what was joy for you?
Speaker 2:Joy for me this sounds like joy for me was again feeling very lucky. The partner that I chose. I found joy in knowing that what we had was good, even though I knew it was like I was being told it was so wrong, like I knew in my, in my heart, that way that he's wired is that that he didn't let that affect him nearly as much and he was able to just look at our relationship as that. But in that moment that's what brought me joy. And then what I had to learn is, once I pulled myself out of that, once we'd been married for a while and I was removing myself, that I'm like, okay, I've seen just my joy with a partner. Now I need to learn how to have my independent joy. And that's been self-exploration that's been coming out, that's been being who I am freely, even though a lot of rejection and loss of friends and family from that space have happened. It's a little bit like, okay, well, good Cause, this was not bringing me any sort of freedom or joy or anything.
Speaker 1:When did you figure out you were a bisexual?
Speaker 2:when did you figure out you were a bisexual?
Speaker 1:when you were like oh, I'm like when I go back and like it was always.
Speaker 2:It was definitely like it's always there, it's always been there, same thing I said like this makes sense. I'm like you mean whenever I watched any disney princess movie and I just was very attracted to all the princesses, and that was it you're like he's an idiot, but her, yeah, no, I see it for her like I remember being being told it was like you just admire them.
Speaker 2:I was just like no, I am attracted to sit in it and I'm so grateful. Honestly, there are so many terrible things about social media, but there are also so many good things about social media and I found the queer spaces on social media and it just it helped me so much because I was definitely, you know, living in a space where I thought I could not say that I was bisexual unless I had an actual sexual experience, and I didn't think it was. I was valid because of that. And then, when I was finding all these different queer spaces on social media where it was like no, you're valid.
Speaker 2:And then also then finding out you know, I didn't know anything about anything All like even just like the conversation of being asexual, like I was so ignorant to that and there's just so many, so many things that social media helped me dive into and find different things to read and learn. And as soon as I found that, I was like well, I know, and I've known for a long time, so you know, then it was just a conversation with my husband and I was like I'm bi and he's like I know.
Speaker 2:He's like been waiting on you know, I'm very aware um so I love that and since then it's just been amazing to just feel the freedom to just internally feel good about who I am and not having to reword certain things like, oh, I admire that woman. It's like, no, I'm attracted to that person. I was just constantly in my youth rewording certain things. It was like when I got my first tattoo, the only way that I could get my first tattoo is by making it a Bible verse, and so it was always reworking the system to get what I wanted. So it was like, you know, the parents agreed because I said it would be a Bible verse, it's like, but I just really wanted a tattoo, that's all that I really wanted.
Speaker 1:I'm like, I'm like covered in tattoos now. It's like, yeah, we have so many. Now. What did safety feel like for you? And let me let me extend it a bit. When I look at safety, I always look at it internally and externally. So what did safety look like for you while you were actively in the church and then, as you've kind of been like a grownup outside and like in your own family?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a tough one. I never felt safe in the church. The times that I'd feel the safest was when I was abiding by the rules that they put in front of me. So I crave safety, I think, as obviously anyone does, but I think that's why I found myself there for so long and I think that's why I found myself in leadership and I was always a quote unquote very good girl growing up, because getting the approval and the thumbs up was the only time that I felt like I was in a safe space, which is not true, but that's how I felt and that's, I think, too, why I am on the eternal, eternal journey to break out of my people-pleasing tendencies, because that's where it comes from, this desire for safety way.
Speaker 2:And the stepping away from the church was like it ended up being just this very dramatic exit and, like I said, lost a lot of people and family along the way. But now, for me, safety is the ability to like I mentioned before that line to keep my own secrets, like the ability to live secrets, like the ability to live privately and to have internal thoughts and not feel like because I had an internal thought that might be different than the person, how the person feels next to me, that I'm not a bad person, that I'm just. I process something in a different way. And when I'm in a space where, oh my gosh, like meeting a friend, where I feel like I can be just myself, that's utmost safety, that there's nothing, there's not a joy on the planet now, that feels like the communion, you know and I'll use the phrase communion of two people or more, where I can just be myself and feel like, even if they don't agree with how I'm feeling in the moment, that it's not, I'm not sinful, I'm just processing something differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, it's those places that you're supposed to feel the safest, and then they fuck you and you're like now what I know, you know what I'm learning?
Speaker 2:that a lot where I'm like oh, I also need to work on like you know who I'm bringing into my space, because, yeah, yeah, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:you mentioned like stepping away and all these things. What was that like for you, like as someone that was so deeply ingrained, the levels you were in it. Everyone knew who you were most likely. Yes, yes, how did you?
Speaker 2:uncouple that it was so scary and also the best feeling on the planet. It was not overnight, it was a long process. I started to just again have certain things that I just kept private. For the first time in my life, I all of a sudden wasn't open and sharing everything. So all of a sudden, when we'd have Bible study and I'd be like, well, what did you go through? And I wouldn't say anything or I'd say something that didn't matter or whatever. But I was starting to keep things personal and private in my own self.
Speaker 2:And part of that then too, was my journey of independence in my relationship, because my husband and I got married when we were so young, 23. We had been dating in high school and we both needed it. We needed to be our own people and the church that we were in very much, or just the community in general very much was. You know, once you're married, the two become one and it's this, like you know, and we didn't need that. We needed our own independent space to be who we are, and so I just kept things very private for a while, even in my own marriage, and I was reading and listening and just like gobbling up information like dinner every single day, one of, I think, the opening for me and I always share this with people and I'm like.
Speaker 2:I know it might sound so random, but the comedian Pete Holmes had a podcast or has a podcast called you Made it Weird. I heard a comedian randomly on and I wasn't even that deep in podcasts at the time, but a comedian that I loved was on the show and I really liked the episodes. Then I listened to the next episode. It was funny, it was cool. And then I listened to the next episode, and the next episode was about spirituality and Pete had come from the next episode and the next episode was about spirituality and Pete had come from a very similar place that I had raised super conservative, and he was in the middle of what he referred to and now a lot of ex-evangelicals refer to as deconstruction, and he was Tell me that, what is that?
Speaker 2:So they have the saying that you start when you're pulling away. There's the deconstruction and they say it's like you were born and you have your apartment right that you're born into and there are a few things that are just in there, like built in, that's just who you are. And then in childhood the construction happens and you have family members and parents who might all of a sudden start Oops, sorry, is it crackling on your end, my mic? Okay, I just want to make sure for the recording, sorry. Thank you, chris, you're doing great You're doing great.
Speaker 1:No, it's fine.
Speaker 2:And then your environment, your parents. They start putting in their own furniture into your apartment, got it? Yeah, then essentially, the deconstruction is when you look around and you're like I'm burning this apartment, I don't like what's in this apartment. Yes, I don't like this space that I'm existing in in my own body, and the deconstruction is like the tearing down of things. And then after is the reconstruction, where you look around at either your empty space Maybe it's completely empty, maybe there are still pieces that are in that you like and you go okay, what am I going to bring in now? And that was where Pete Holmes was in. He was in this deconstruction phase and he was having on people like Rob Bell, who was all these different spiritual leaders that were in the zone that I was in on this podcast, and it was like my brain was exploding.
Speaker 2:And I felt like I know, and I was like this is incredible and I, like, I said I was eating it up, it was everything, and but I wasn't talking about it at all. And then I was reading their books and all this, and then I got pregnant and that was then when I was like, oh my god, this is the moment that I have to decide what direction my life is going in, because I will not, I will not raise my child in this environment. I refuse, um, and then that was the conversation where I sat my husband down and I was like this is, this is the end. This is the end. This is the end, like our marriage is over, because he can't be with a heretic like me, you know.
Speaker 2:And it was an incredible moment because I sat down with him and he was like Jessica, same, like same, same same, and he had been processing all the same exact things and feeling the same ways. And we were like, okay, how are we going to do this? And we for a little while kept it a secret between the two of us. Sure, and then, eventually, we just put it all out there. I put it all out there, on in podcasts, on chatty broads, and people heard it, and that was then the beginning of the end.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, and that was like that was the beginning of the end, you know, for a lot of relationships and things, and but it was so special to me because and I I'm going to keep harping back on the keeping your own secrets, because that was something that I just never realized was so important to be able to just have your own boundaries and privacy is that to have that time in my life, and it lasted for many years where I was on my own private journey. I was on my own private journey and then I brought my husband in and he had been on his own private journey and then him and I had our private journey together, before ever exposing it to anyone because they don't need to know. And that realization of I'm like this is my own life, I don't need to be documenting this and sharing this with certain people around me, like I can just give this to who I feel comfortable with until I'm ready.
Speaker 1:And uh, yeah, wow, have you mourned for that part of yourself?
Speaker 2:it is definitely a grieving process. That is the grieving, not linear, it comes in waves, for sure. I definitely had a serious phase of mourning. Yeah, I had a serious phase of rage, like I was so mad, and that still hits me every once in a while when I have memories that I've like repressed, suppressed, and then all of a sudden I'll remember and I'll be like, oh my god, I forgot about that and I'll get really angry. But the morning it's like a kind of a continual thing. But right now I'm so.
Speaker 2:What I love is being able to have now my child and as I'm raising her, as she's going through different parts of her life, it's helping heal, I think, my past self because I'm able to be along for her ride, parenting her.
Speaker 2:But then remembering those pivotal moments in my life and mourning and grieving those where I'm like, oh, like I said her, even just saying like I love myself so much In the moment I was like obsessed, obsessed, and then, after I put her to bed, I cried that night because I was like, oh, I never understood what that meant, because I always hated myself and to have to be a kid and have any feeling of being proud of who you are or love yourself. I'm like, wow, like you know, myself and so many beyond, so many others never got to experience that and that's terrible. And so, yeah, there's the grief in that, in the morning and that, for sure, but then, like the sunrise, when then I see her, because it always sticks in my head, you know I'm a huge, I love drag. That's also a big thing, that.
Speaker 1:I love drag.
Speaker 2:That was a huge, pivotal thing for myself as well. I was listening to the podcast and then watching RuPaul's Drag Race simultaneously and hearing in the workroom different queens talking about their stories. And so many of them had stories where they were raised in very conservative evangelical homes and were rejected by family and parents and hearing their stories was just so helpful and beneficial for me. And they always say RuPaul always says if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love anybody else? And I think about that with my daughter, where I'm like, oh, she loves herself so much and she loves other people so much because she's able to love herself so much. And then I look back at because she's able to love herself so much. And then I look back at like being raised where it's like you should hate yourself but you need to simultaneously put everyone else first and love others. And it's just like how the heck am I supposed to know how to do that if I can't love who I am?
Speaker 1:You're like this is a lot. Can we break it down? You've mentioned a word quite often, shame, um, and I always look at it as shame and guilt. Or like the cousins no one wants to hang out with, like shame is all the shit people put on us and guilt is how we hold on to it. Where is, where is the shame and the guilt for you in 2024?
Speaker 2:oh, the shame and the guilt in 2024. Um, it's getting better, it's getting better. We're it's, it's slowly. Sometimes, oh, it's hit like a tsunami. You know, we're out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:I'm realizing that I'm doing something out of pure shame, or then guilt, genuinely, and that's been a big reflection for me over this past year. 2024 so far has been like the year of me just really having to sit and be still and not be quick to diagnose something about myself and just be like why did you do that? Or why did you allow that person into your space, or why did you? You know all these things. And then when I'm sitting with myself and realizing that almost all of it has to do with this shame and guilt that I have, but that one it, it reminds me, it's similar and it reminds me of of grief, it it's, it's not linear and I do feel, like you know, when I have hope for myself and I'm, what I'm excited about is that I'm like you know, this is just starting and I have the rest of my life to keep growing and shifting, but I do feel like that's something that I will carry for me for forever. That's going to be the forever battle for me is that are those backpacks of you're a bad person and the way in which you move in the world is not the right way, and so that's always going to be ringing in my head to the point where and now I've gotten to a place where, you know, I'm pretty much not on social media ever. I very rarely venture there.
Speaker 2:Because what I started to realize is that I was ingesting everyone's opinions, the good, the bad and the ugly. I was ingesting all of them and wearing them. Like okay, this is who I need to be now. And coming off so fresh from leaving the church and that community I was becoming, whoever was in front of me wanted me to be because that's what I was used to doing. So it's like, okay, well, I leave the church, but now I'm going to become who this other person thinks I should be.
Speaker 2:And so when I'm, like you know, on social media and like getting in the DMs and reading certain things, I'm like okay, and even if they're because of course you know you have to take in like I love a constructive criticism and I love it, but I had to see I'm like, okay, what space am I in? Can I do this right now? Because what I was seeing myself doing was, instead of just receiving certain things as constructive criticism, it would be like I'm a bad person. Okay, so this is who I am now. Even if it's something as basic as, like, the sound quality, I'm like I've done it all wrong and I must. I must deconstruct the studio and start it all up from afresh and it's like no, that's not healthy for me. So, learning to know that shame and guilt are going to always be present and, when they're feeling super extra, to know that it's like hey, I can only allow certain opinions into my sphere in this moment, or else I'm going to become someone who I'm not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are you currently unlearning? I feel like this is like as a grown up, we spend so much time unlearning shit to make room to learn things. Yes, I'm always like, always like oh, okay, I don't need this those away.
Speaker 2:I love that. You know. What's so cool too is that, like, just just hearing that phrase what are you unlearning? It lights me up, because that was so something that wasn't an option. Yeah, in that the world that I was raised in because it was like you learn these tenets and then you stick by these and you do these for forever there wasn't this idea of continued growth and unlearning. Something just wasn't really. It was never a phrase I had heard, and it's so exciting to think like, oh, I can unlearn shit now and relearn and I can shift and become who I am and all of this.
Speaker 2:I would say the biggest thing that I'm unlearning right now is well, I'm trying to think of the right way to phrase this, because what I'm learning is that not everyone's going to like you, sure, so I'm unlearning. Yeah, I'm unlearning the hey, everybody, everybody's gotta like you for you to be a good person. Yeah, that's, I think, how I was raised, where for you to be palatable and good, like, it has to be a general consensus that everyone likes you and everyone's gonna have an opinion in this community, and the only way that you're good is if everyone like agrees that you're good and learning that Not everyone's going to like you, and that's totally fine, like just the it's and it's. So it sounds so basic but it's so hard for me. But then when I pull back and I go, there are plenty of people that I'm not huge fans of and I don't hate them.
Speaker 1:You actually don't like people, yeah.
Speaker 2:The thing about it is there are plenty of people that I don't love, and I'm not like there's anything wrong with them, it's just like they're not my cup of tea. I'm not going to spend my time listening to their content or watching their content, and they're not a bad person. It's just not for me and that's fine. And I think that's the journey right now, where I'm like okay, it's okay, it's okay. If someone doesn't like what I'm doing now and is like oh, it's boring, or it's too agreeable, or it's stupid, or whatever I go. Oh it's boring, or it's you know, too agreeable, or it's stupid, or whatever I go, oh, it's okay, you don't have to like me, I can be annoying to you, that's okay, you know.
Speaker 1:Can you consume media that's around like religion and purity culture, like for trauma things I'm like? Eh, I can't always watch all the things but I'm like sure, sometimes you find the like, the relation, and it's like someone gets it.
Speaker 2:It has to be the right place, right time for me and I think I've learned to know myself enough to know when I can. What's funny is now I'm in a space where I can consume content that disagrees with me. More like that goes back to purity culture. I can hear that more now because I'm so confident in who I am and so confident in my decision to remove myself and I've given myself the tools and learned the skills and all of that to rebuttal those things and not have the temptation to slide back into that. Specifically, I have a harder time, honestly, sometimes now engaging with people who are in that mid deconstruction space and I love it because it's like this is like this is the important stuff.
Speaker 2:But I think sometimes when I listen to the deconstruction I get back to a place of anger which I'm all about being getting that anger, but I'm like I I'm not there right now. I let the anger out a lot and I'm in a place where I'm feeling so peaceful and I'd like to stay there in this exact moment. So when I sometimes hear that type of media, it can really re-trigger certain things or memories of certain people that I'm like, oh yeah, fuck them. And then I go, you know, and then I that's all I'm thinking about for weeks where I'm just spiraling, being like if I could go back and be in that position and what I would have done or said, and you know, that's then where I'm in a loop.
Speaker 1:I don't want to be in yeah, I wouldn't want to do that again. I'd be like it's like doing high school again. I'm okay.
Speaker 2:It's like we're good, it's a nice memory, but I'm fine. Do you consider yourself still religious? No, I would say, and my thing is too, and this was part of my reconstruction. To go back to that phrasing is that I'm in a place now I really I do enjoy hearing about different people's religions if they're participating in anything religious. Like you know, I talked to my kid and I'm like hey, you can believe and participate in anything that you want to. My only caveat is so long as it's not hurting anybody. You know emotionally, physically, all these things. You know emotionally, physically, all these things and so I love hearing people and learning about that and I respect it so much Again, within the bounds of not hurting people and when it's just about you personally. But no, I don't and I don't.
Speaker 2:I never say never because you know who knows where I'll be in 10 years, but I don't foresee myself ever being religious, ever again. But I do feel extremely spiritual. That definitely hasn't gone away and I don't know what I think and I've felt this way for a few years and I think it's my most favorite place I've ever been in. And I've felt this way for a few years and I think it's my most favorite place I've ever been in, where, when my child says what happens when we die? Or is there a God or da-da-da? Where I go, I don't know. And I love saying I don't know because I think that was never allowed, it was never considered.
Speaker 2:So when I get to say I don't know, I feel the opposite of nervousness, I feel the opposite of fear. I feel like so confident and being like oh, it's so great to feel good and saying I don't know. And that's how I feel now. I have my certain spiritual practices. I love reading certain things, ingesting certain things, but that's kind of where it lands for me, at least right now.
Speaker 1:What brings you joy?
Speaker 2:Oh, now is like the essence and energy of peace.
Speaker 2:I think, after removing myself from the church, what brought me joy is adrenaline and exhilaration, and I was out there doing anything and everything I could and I was like, let's make up for lost time. And I had so much fun, buckle up, buckle up and I had so much fun. And now what brings me so much joy is waking up on those days where it's quiet and I get to be with a family or a friend, like genuinely, just like a quiet walk and listening. I think my brain is very busy. It's always been extremely busy, and years ago I think I would just try to always fill any time or gap with.
Speaker 2:What you should be doing is worshiping. What you should be doing is thinking on your walk, you should be pond the sights and the smells, and just being present is like the ultimate joy and gift for me, because I don't think that being present was ever allowed or encouraged. It was always either. Well, the focus was always future. You want to get to heaven and be good here, so you got to be putting in the work, work, work, work, work, work, work, because you want to get there, versus like really trying to learn how to be like. This is what I have, and so I'm going to really try to sit in it and savor it, and that's really brought me peace that I never thought existed before, and that's joy Like, even in some of those like strenuous moments, to be able to pull back and go oh, it's okay. It's okay, one step at a time, deep breath. You know what I have is here and now. That's it, and it's so good and I'm so grateful.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think that when we look at these things, we focus on just like the negative parts, but I'm like joy is so important. Yeah, joy is what we need to exist Because, honestly, we could look outside, outside, turn the news on right now and say fuck it all yeah, no, a thousand percent, a million percent correct, I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 1:Uh, that's uh. There's so many things that are running through my head. That's also because it's early for my brain. Um, when I first met y'all it was you and Becca and I was in the space with you. You introduced me to a song by Garfunkel and Oates. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2:I do, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And I was like what do you mean? There's a song about anal sex. What Fuck me in the ass? Um, uh. So I'm like let me look up the full title of it. Well, because it just says in the ass.
Speaker 2:I'm like where's the title? Oh my god, I haven't looked at that in so long and I love that yeah, the loophole it's called the loophole. Oh my god, that sounds that sounds crazy. That's the point.
Speaker 1:Yes, the reason I bring that up is like myths, like I, you know, people are always like I mean, anal sex isn't really sex, so it doesn't count. So it's the loophole which is so wild yeah. Hello, and they're like I'm not going to use lube, that doesn't make it count.
Speaker 2:Oh, the journey of lube discovery was just next level for me. I was like what is this incredible substance? Yeah, Insane.
Speaker 1:You know what? Lube for everyone, especially your butt. It does not create any lubrication there, but lube it's your best friend, y'all it's your best friend.
Speaker 2:It's your best friend. It's your best friend, it's your best friend.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh uh, what other myths did you experience it? Maybe you were like are you guys fucking with me? Like what oh?
Speaker 2:my gosh, there are so many myths. I'm like so many. Um, yeah, the loophole was definitely one of them. That was, that was hilarious, just like the idea that, like you know, yeah, god doesn't see certain things. It's just, you know, penis into vagina, that's the only thing. Blood, yeah, no, like, let me.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you what I when, when, all of a sudden at a later age, I was like, oh, I was having sex this whole time. That was a sudden, at a later age, I was like, oh, I was having sex this whole time. That was a wild thing for me to discover. You're like, oh, but that specific type of penetration hadn't happened, so I haven't had sex. It's just like, no, you have been.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, I'm trying to think Myths, myths, myths. I'm trying to think Myths, myths, myths. I literally it felt like I mean, it's hard for me to even think because it literally feels like everything you know so much about sexuality. Lube is a great example energy in the community that I was in where, like I said, very confusing because it's like, well, don't have sex, but when you're married you got to be, you know, swinging from the rafters, the chandeliers, just like absolute freak for your wild. It's so wild but extreme, it's just like.
Speaker 2:It was just all the myths of like, first of all, the binary, that was a huge like what in the world? But then just like, if you are a CIS man, you just they, all they want is sex, 24, seven. It's just like, well, that wasn't true. And if you are a CIS woman, you don't have these like sexual desires, but you have to give them to, and you're like what? I mean, there were just, it was just all of that.
Speaker 2:And so then the thing is, though, too would be like, well, you have to have this amount of sex to be having a healthy sexual relationship with your husband, and then, if you need lube, it's probably because you know it's, it's on you. You're not producing enough because you're not allowing yourself to get turned on all of those things. It was just sing enough because you're not allowing yourself to get turned on all of those things. It was just. I realized that everything that all the blame, you know very patriarchal community, where all the blame was put on, like you know, myself as a woman and again, don't even get me started when it comes to the queer community but like, just as a woman. It was like everything. If there's any quote-unquote bump in the road for him, it's because it's your fault. You know, um consent massive. That was.
Speaker 2:I think, one of the more dangerous things in in that space that was a myth was that once you're married, you know all's fair and there was no conversation about consent, and I feel extremely like I, you know just extremely grateful that that was never any like. That wasn't a story for me, but I have so many dear friends that it was, and just walking through times with them where we didn't we couldn't put words to it and we thought that it was just all okay. But then we knew it was not and that, yeah, I mean it's just, there were so many, there were so many surrounding sex where it was just myth, myth, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that that is a huge obsession. In the specific evangelical community that I was raised in, you know, there's no conversation about violence, war, that's all good, it's like there's nothing there, but it's just like but sex is the obsession and it's bad until it's good and there's only one type of good and yeah, that is dangerous.
Speaker 1:It's and the idea of like your partner can't assault you, like their rape, doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:Correct. Correct and in that you know so many people and so many people that I know in situations where, because a marriage is there and they don't feel safe, but it's like, well, there's marriage, you can't get a divorce and the only way biblically that they said you were allowed to have a divorce was if your partner cheated. Anything else could be happening in that marriage and a divorce was not allowed. And it was so dangerous and as often when I saw it, you know, on from the woman's side it was like, well, but I can't cheat, because if I do and he leaves me, I'll be fully shunned and shamed by my community. But I need to get out of this. So it was just, you know, people almost like begging for their partner to cheat, like that was the only way out. It's just wild, like looking back, it's just um, it's just wild.
Speaker 1:Like looking back, it's just it's wild. I have two more questions. Yes, what does community mean to you? It sounds like you have had so many different types of community, but like, what does that mean for you present day?
Speaker 2:so like positive community, oh, like I definitely there's been a lot of forms of community and there there were a lot of forms of community in my past and you know I'm obviously sitting here just talking absolute shit and saying all these terrible things but there were so many people who my heart breaks because they were part of the community and you know they didn't know otherwise and I think of them often and so it's like there were so many really beautiful people that I met in that space who just had been feeling like they couldn't leave or even didn't know otherwise.
Speaker 2:I do think again social media blessings, so grateful for it, because I've seen so many now people learn things because of social media that now they feel and they've moved on.
Speaker 2:Um, but community now to me is I just when I hear community, I just like feel the word space like like a matter where we are in life or what we're processing through space is made and also boundaries are made, like there's this symbiosis of the coming and going in community.
Speaker 2:That's something that I really value with the community I have now is that I have people who will make space for me but then also understand that sometimes I need to retreat and I need to go be in my little cave and heal and they don't see that as me abandoning, but instead it's a different way that they're making space, and I think the fluid movement of community now is something that is such a gift to me. I think I treasure the most out of everything are meeting people where there's the understanding of that life comes in waves, grief comes in waves, guilt comes in waves, ecstasy and joy come in waves, and being able to hold space for all of that with the people that you're surrounding yourself with, I think we could talk about this all day because I'll just keep my brain will just keep flowing, but we also have shit to do today.
Speaker 1:A question that I like to end the show with, because we talk about such fun stuff here. The problem is fun to me, y'all stuff here, the problem is fun to me, y'all. This is purely just because I'm a nosy bitch. What is the wildest thing and wildest perspective? What is the wildest thing? Someone?
Speaker 2:has texted or DMed you in the last two weeks. Okay, so I told you before we started. I said I haven't been in the DMs in a minute. That's somewhere I don't venture often as much and, by the way, I do have to say in general I'm so grateful for my community on social media because I feel like so many, like the mass, mass, mass majority of the messages are always so lovely and encouraging. But I'm a sensitive lady so I have to be careful venturing there because one will send me into that people pleasing spiral for an eternity. But I actually got a message, so I dove in and it was a message that was literally sent the day before I checked. I checked like two days ago, the day before I checked, and it's funny because it's kind of like what we have been talking about. So the message essentially said that they because I have a podcast and that they said it's very obvious that your energy has changed in like this past year, and nobody likes it Nobody damn.
Speaker 2:Nobody likes it. You seem off, you seem unhappy. It's just kind of pulsating off of you. It was a long message about how no one likes my new energy I guess this year and how it's so obvious that I'm not doing well. And the funny thing about the messages that I always have that flicker. I have that flicker of going oh, my God, am I not happy? Does everyone see that I'm not happy and I'm not aware of how I feel right now and I was able to kind of be like okay, I got to do my, I do my tapping, I do my breathing A little reality testing.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, a little testing of reality here. And it's so funny because I'm like this past year there's been like a lot of just random hard things like health wise and things like that. There's just been a lot. But ironically, I'm like, I feel like I'm in the best place I've been in my entire life. Right now, personally, I feel the most at peace, I feel the most like, I'm feeling that joy just emanating, even through then these certain rocky times. So it was just so funny to me because I felt like it was a good reminder where I'm like you know what? Maybe everyone is looking at me on the podcast and going you are in a bad space and we can all tell and we all hate it, but I'm like, but the truth of the matter is, I feel the best I've felt in ever.
Speaker 1:So, oh well, my energy is terrible. I'm doing great yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm like, and I'm like you know what. It's a good reminder for me too, where I'm like okay, this person thinks that my energy is they can't stand whatever energy I'm putting out right now. And it was a good reminder too, because I'm like well, I feel really good in my energy right now. I feel like I've been in my energy, I've been like a good partner. I feel like I've been able to be like a really present, good mom. So this person doesn't. They like my energy, I guess at a different time, and that's great and I'm glad that they liked my energy then, but I like my energy now. So, oh well, I love that.
Speaker 1:Well, good luck out there. I don't know what to tell you. This was so fun. I laughed. I made faces and you know y'all will see it because it's visual. But where can they? He, she, zim, zay, all of the above, where can they find you? Tell us about your podcast. Also, tell us your business before you leave us, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much. Okay, so everyone can find me at the Bad Mom with two Ds. I post sometimes, not often. Like I said, I've not been often on social media in the past year or two I suppose, but I do have a podcast. It's called your Mom and Dad. It is with my partner and most of the time we talk all things reality television. It is a silly, silly place. We kind of are in a space where we're like you know what we want to have a moment where a lot of us watch reality TV to decompress and then have some weird, wild conversations after, and we have a space where we have sometimes emotional conversations about things that were sparking in our brain after watching people on our televisions and then a lot of times we just have a deep, silly laughter.
Speaker 1:Good old time to just have a moment of peace in the week because we need that, because we need that, because we need that everyone, please, please, go listen to the podcast, get a little little breather.
Speaker 2:A little laughter, a little breather, and a little laughter, a little breather a little breather and every once in a while, a moment where I cry. You know I have to throw that in every once in a while, depending on maybe that's the energy they're talking about. All of a sudden I'm like wait, have I been crying a lot?
Speaker 1:I feel like when people are like I don't like this energy, I I'm like, oh, I'm doing something right, because it's probably something about you that is not for me, and I'm like, oh no, look at you getting lost.
Speaker 2:And see, this is why I love you so much and you are such a gift, because what takes me a millennia to try to say, you're like, you've got the one line and I'm like that's it. Write it down, put it in a book.
Speaker 1:Put it in a book. That's it, goodbye, goodbye. Also, I'm going to say this and my friend was like you got to stop saying this. I've been calling people peasant. And my business partner she's like I got a new one she's like plebeian. And I was like you can't call people plebeians and I said why not? What are they?
Speaker 2:and she's like sometimes so I'm just being real right now don't be a plebeian.
Speaker 1:Uh, this was so good. I love you so much. I love talking about the hard things. Because why not? Because we spent so much time not talking about them. You spent so much time not talking about it. And I'm also someone that's like how do we get through something? By continuously trying to go around it or over it, Like you got to go through the shit.
Speaker 2:Right and the thing is too like like what you're doing in your space is what changed my life. You know, like if I would have had your podcast at the time it wasn't around yet but if I would have had an access to that, I'm like that's what I needed. A podcast literally got me out, and so people like yourself and other people who come on this podcast, who are then talking about these things, I'm like this. I I'm one and I can literally say I'm like this changed my life and I have a full different direction now and I understand your joy. Now, you know, and then, generationally, it's like okay, then now I can be a different type of mom to my child. Um, so this is. I mean. You're literally doing the Lord's work. However, you want to dissect that term.
Speaker 1:You know what, and we're going to leave it at that Cause, y'all you dissect it in your own way, exactly this was great.
